The Pulse Nightclub Shooting

Like everyone, I was horrified to read about what happened in the Pulse nightclub on Saturday night.

The scourge that is at the heart of this awful event is hatred, hatred so deep that a person could walk into a nightclub and kill fifty people and wound many more. I can’t imagine that. I am saddened that anyone can.

For me, the only response to this kind of hatred is love, unconditional love.

And my act of love was giving to this Crowdrise that will help pay for the funeral and medical costs for Pulse victims.

Please join us if you are so inclined.

#Current Affairs

Comments (Archived):

  1. obarthelemy

    Better than the Sisyphean task of paying for ever more funerals, vote for gun control and universal background checks, that’s the proven way to curb murders in general and mass murders in particular.Paying for funerals is nice, but barely a band-aid. Actually, not even a band aid, those are for living breathing people.

    1. fredwilson

      well i have voted for that and done a lot more (given money to those causes)i don’t think its a choice between the two

      1. obarthelemy

        You’re cool. My comment was not a criticism of you or your actions, but the situation is beyond maddening. How many must die ?

    2. Dave Pinsen

      Has there been any recent mass shooter who bought a gun (legally) without having a background check done on him?

      1. obarthelemy…background checks are too lenient, guns are way too readily available. Let’s use reason, not passion esp fear, for once ? Guns kill people.

  2. awaldstein

    Overtook my weekend Fred as it did many.I’ll donate but honestly I look for avenues to act as denial and laissez-faire to me is the worst response and I find myself slipping into it.

    1. fredwilson

      what more can we do/should we do?i agree with you that our society is slipping (has slipped) into laissez-faire on this issue

      1. Dave Pinsen

        You’ll disagree, I’m sure, but how about not letting in people from benighted countries? There’s a chance we’ll miss out the next Afghan or Chechen software entrepreneur, but we’ll also prevent some future atrocities.One thing that should be clear by now is that there’s no “magic dirt” that automatically makes someone born in the US or France or Belgium share the values of those countries. We’ve seen examples of children of immigrants radicalizing in Boston, Paris, San Bernardino, Brussels, and now Orlando.

        1. Conor

          I do not believe your suggestion will prevent adherence to a hateful ideology. Change the system to change your gun laws.

          1. Dave Pinsen

            France has much stricter gun laws than we do. Didn’t prevent the atrocities in Paris.

          2. Conor

            No it didn’t, we have a different set of challenges in Europe. But your argument is weak if you look at the numbers Dave.

          3. Dave Pinsen

            The US has the highest rate of gun ownership in the world but is #28 in gun homicides (wouldn’t be surprised if “homicides” includes suicides here:… ).

          4. RichardF

            Leads the world in mass shootings by a pretty big margin though Dave, according to the wsj

          5. markslater

            unfortunately this will pass in the night like others before them as we have not as a society yet come to terms with the root cause of this stuff. Until we do, we’ll simply blame guns or islam…..

          6. Pointsandfigures

            I don’t want to delve into a gun discussion on this thread. The numbers are messy because who is behind funding the studies. At the same time, murders in many neighborhoods in the US aren’t really because of guns-they are because we wage a senseless and stupid war on drugs and the people in those neighborhoods have no hope.

          7. LE

            The blame also falls on the shoulders of people in the US who are recreational users of illegal drugs or were in the past. The entire supply system, even for marijuana. It was illegal until it was legal in the places it is legal now. I hope anybody who smoked it realizes that they are/were a contributor to some of that gun violence by creating a market for it.

        2. fredwilson

          It is long past that time. Hatred is spread by the technology of our items. It knows no borders. We must fight the hate.

          1. bsoist

            Hatred is spread by the technology of our items.Another comment I read earlier made me think of this. Terri and I always talk about how great networks have been for spreading truth – tolerance, reason, etc. – and how that is helping break people out of their brainwashing, BUT …it dawns on me after these comments how it’s a double edged sword. The hate spreads too. Sad.

        3. LE

          Kudos for not being PC. While I am not sure that is the answer I would always support considering suggestions previously never considered as solutions.To me this is more the perfect storm of many factors, availability of weapons (and hey a car can be a weapon), mental health, opportunities for young people, violent video games, social media, and most importantly actually, the media and their celebration of events like this.The media’s lead (similar to 911) was that it was the worst act of mass violence on US soil ever. Big splashy headlines and it will go for days (and then be forgotten) All that type of publicity does is stoke the next nut to take the trophy with more killing next time.

    2. William Mougayar

      I agree that simply donating to the victims is a band aid or temporary pain relief.I’m not a US citizen nor resident, so my influence is limited, and I shouldn’t interfere, but I don’t know what to suggest. Go to the streets, and protest? Stage more visible activities? Target the politicians that keep voting to not change anything & stop electing them? Sadly, even the President of the USA appears almost powerless on this issue.

      1. Pointsandfigures

        Blasting ISIS and their ideology to the moon might work. We need Winston Churchill’s now, not Neville Chamberlain. (This is not a comment on Fred’s blogpost today which is a nice gesture)

  3. jason wright

    have to ban automatic weapons. there’s just no valid reason to allow them.

    1. sigmaalgebra

      “Automatic weapons” are illegal in the US. Semi-automatic rifles, pistols, and shotguns are legal.

  4. William Mougayar

    The words of Tony winner Frank Langella from his acceptance speech last evening are still stuck in my mind & he is so right.โ€œWhen something bad happens we have three choices. We can let it define us, we can let it destroy us or we can let it strengthen us. Today in Orlando we had a hideous dose of reality. I urge you Orlando to be strong. Iโ€™m standing in a room full of the most generous human beings on earth and we will be with you every step of the way.โ€

    1. fredwilson

      We saw him the play that he got the award for. It was an amazing performance. He is fantastic

      1. William Mougayar

        Actually I thought you did when I was watching yesterday, as I had a Foursquare memory association flash.

      2. Anne Libby

        And what a career! He has been around the block numerous times, but can probably walk down the street in NYC unrecognized.

    2. laurie kalmanson

      word. also, from lin manuel miranda:”We chase the melodies that seem to find us until they’re finished songs and start to play when senseless acts of tragedy remind us that nothing here is promised, not one day. This show is proof that history remembers. We live through times when hate and fear seem stronger. We rise and fall, and light from dying embers, remembrances that hope and love last longer and love is love is love is love is love is love is love is love cannot be killed or swept aside. As sacred as a symphony Eliza tells her story. Now fill the world with music, love and pride. And thank you so much for this.”…

      1. fredwilson

        Yeah. That was very moving. And I agree with him as this post suggests

      2. bsoist

        “fill the world with music, love, and pride”LOVED THATp.s. I fixed your version of it by adding the Oxford comma ๐Ÿ™‚

  5. Donna Brewington White

    For me, the only response to this kind of hatred is love, unconditional love.So well said, Fred. Love is expressed one action at a time. Maybe this doesn’t solve the larger problems, but rather than be immobilized by a sense of inadequacy, we can act in human kindness on behalf of other human beings.That is not such a small thing as it might seem.

    1. Mario Cantin

      That attitude expressed by Fred is ultimately the only way “out” for humanity — onward and upward that is. An eye for an eye is sure to keep us mired down in hatred and pettiness. Easier said than done though.

  6. Vendita Auto

    AI in the sense of evolving looks good to me

  7. John Pepper

    I just donated. It doesn’t solve the problem, neither is it supposed to. It doesn’t replace real action, neither is it meant to. It’s a small thing that hopefully won’t even be noticed by the families of the deceased and wounded, so they can focus on each other, which is exactly the point.

    1. fredwilson

      Exactly. But it is an act of generosity

      1. John Pepper


      2. panterosa,

        It is generosity, but it stands more for solidarity. Solidarity with the specific victims families, and their broader community, and what they stand for.

  8. Tom Labus

    An insane event in a long line of insane events. Now with insane politicians.

  9. LIAD

    Hatred may be the underlying emotion but it’s not the underlying cause.Root cause is the blind adherence to a dogmatic ideology.This time was a gay nightclub. Could just as easily have been a Jewish day school, african-american church or pro-life rally. The ideology of us vs them, absolute good vs absolute evil, unquestionable right vs unquestionable wrong is toxic.Everyone is free to their views and opinions. But. Live and let live.Love can be the answer. Education can be the answer. But sometimes, the answer needs to be wrath and fury and unimaginable force.

    1. LE

      Root cause is the blind adherence to a dogmatic ideology.Liad that may be the case in the middle east but I don’t think it’s as much the case here. In the US it’s a mental health issue driven by perhaps latching on to an ideology as a rationalization.

      1. markslater

        Completely agree. For me at this stage its a mental health issue.Someone should move for the removal of the texan governor on the grounds that he is mentally unfit to perform his duties.

        1. DJL

          Mental health? Islam kidnaps little children. They make sex slaves out of the girls and teach little boys to kill.The Texas Governor is handicapped, by the way. You should learn a bit more about him before spewing.

          1. markslater

            how does his “handicap” excuse his vile comments? go ahead and justify that.Organized religion of any kind is the root.

          2. DJL

            Right from the Atheist playbook. Christians do not promote violence and hatred. They promote love. With all due respect, you are speaking about something you know nothing about.If it were not for Christianity, you would not be writing in this blog. It was an integral part of the foundation of this country – Like it or not. Equating all religions is an intellectually lazy, but all too common play to generate opposition toward all religion.

          3. markslater

            no its not lazy. you just don’t like me calling your “religion” what it is – a pure piece of fiction. Complete fantasy. I’m Sorry if that offends you.

          4. DJL

            I really don’t think your sorry. Liberals love offending in the name of tolerance.

          5. obarthelemy

            “Christians do not promote violence and hatred.”. The bible does though. A lot.

          6. ShanaC

            murm (edit: grammar)A) Hi DavidChristians do not promote violence and hatred. They promote love. With all due respect, you are speaking about something you know nothing about. This is a variation of the no true scotsman argument. Westboro Baptist Church are Independent Baptists not in communion with other Baptists and also extreme Racists. They are insane, but outside of their racist theology, they have multiple theological features that are mainstream in many other rightwing evangelical churches and they wouldn’t be out of place in any of their theological conferences.If it were not for Christianity, you would not be writing in this blog. It was an integral part of the foundation of this country – Like it or not. Depends on what you mean by that.The founding fathers did go churches, most of which we now call “mainline churches” in sociology of religion (or if you are the type to read Pew Forum studies on the stuff). Those churches were very different from their current forms, and even what the founding fathers would do in them, there is no way they would get away with that behavior today. Jefferson’s personal bible did not mention the word “God” in it – he would be looked upon strangely for taking that bible to a Congregationalist church today if he tried to do that. The crises that were rocking Europe in the form for reformation were taken to their most extreme here, particularly in the formation of Pennsylvania and Rhode Island (one of the reasons the Society of Friends/Quakers ended up here, particularly in Rhode Island and Pennsylvania is because even from their beginnings, they didn’t agree with what came out of the First Council of Nicea and decided to focus of the immediate preaching of the Bible as well as god’s immanence among themselves as equals, including women) Meanwhile, today in most mainline churches, specific questions coming out of the first and second councils of Nicea don’t even come up as culture war questions the way they did for the founding fathers. In fact, most evangelical churches and most mainline churches don’t know the theological differences between themselves, other neighboring churches, and the history about why they occurred. Being a Lutheran during the establishment of this country, in contrast, MEANT something.Being NOT A LUTHERAN also meant something too during the period. Some of the cash bankrolling the revolution was from Jewish families in Rhode Island, Boston, Savanah, and New York. Said same families sent their own children to fight in the war^ (the congregation in New York, Shearith Israel, from which that money came from still meets daily for prayer. Lovely Community, I’ve been to it! – )I’m also pretty sure that one of the outcomes of the French-Indian War is that the Iroquois Nation Helped Washington along the east coast as part of alliance we had with the French during the War for Independence. They are really not Christian.Finally, the founding father’s intellectual fathers, Locke, Hobbes, and Rousseau, weren’t huge church and god lovers in the most traditional senses of the word at all. They at most tend to think of God out there as starting the universe and ignoring us at best – and that we should rule via reason and civility order, through our logical facilities working together. So I think they would have been meh on God in government (which explains a bit about that letter from Washington to the congregation at the Touro Synagogue http://www.tourosynagogue.o… )However, if you were to say Christianity were to cause this country because of 39 treatises of Luther which came out of important technological and economic changes going on Europe at the time, I would totally support that idea.Equating all religions is an intellectually lazy, but all too common play to generate opposition toward all religion.Very True, but most have similar features in some way, otherwise anthropology and sociology of religion wouldn’t be fun to study (also I admit to being a bit strange and liking reading stuff by say, the Barna Group on Occassion)^So fun story about that. My senior year in high school I was the only student to take 2 sciences at once, one of which was AP Biology. Most people take it their Junior year (or they alternatively take AP Chemistry, which I had taken my Junior year). I went to an all Jewish school. The guy sitting next to me in biology class is a junior and he is having a tough time with certain things in cell processes and org bio, and our teacher tells me to tutor him because I am sleeping in class and getting perfect grades. So I show up to his house, and there is this portrate on the wall on a delft plate of a guy who looks like he comes out of the revolutionary war period on his den wall. So I turn and ask, “who is the guy” urns out the plate was made in holland before the revolutionary war, the guy was from holland and was a portrait of his ancestor who immigrated here before the revolution, and he had a bunch of ancestors who fought in the revolution. He told me his parents occassional participate in all jewish chapters in Sons/Daughters of the American revolutionary War. I had never seen that in a Jewish house in my life. WE then became friends, I tutored him in biology, we both got 5s on the AP, life went and apparently his mother is still annoyed that we never dated(and I realize reading through this I forgot about slave religion, which is how you get Voodoo in Louisiana, though at this point it isn’t part of the US until the Louisiana purchase)

          7. DJL

            Point taken! Thanks for the thoughtful response. Much appreciated.

          8. ShanaC

            I’m an ex-orthodox Jewish atheist lady, who goes to a zen buddhist temple to meditate, who has had the nickname at one point of Miss BDB (For the Brown-Drivers-Briggs… ) by no less than the guys who owned the premier bible and religion bookstore in english in Jerusalem at one point, who has owned and lost an over 1k aramiac -> english dictionary (the new multivolume hopkins one, separated by aramaic dialect with new words in it from mystic bowls, and who is pretty sure she has extended relatives who are kachists (aka techically should be on the US watch list for terrorism because of Kahane)I’m really one of those people who do read the barna group on occasion, so trust me when I say, you got off easy. A lot of the narrative put forth by non-aligned evangelical groups is not grounded in contemporary fact. It often isn’t aligned with biblical facts (either from the text itself or similarly period texts). Most people reading the bible even from translation don’ even read from good translations that note difficult points that are still emergent in the field – let alone sit there and try to push themselves to read any of the books in the original. (suggestion: choose a minor prophet as a starting point if you want to start)Frankly, I’m way more likely to be discriminated against for my beliefs in this country because of what people think religion is saying (though I would say that is what Christianity is saying now sociologically) because I have multiple minority associations – atheist in a nontheist “religious” group.

          9. thomas

            This is a variation of the no true scotsman argument. Westboro Baptist Church are Independent Baptists not in communion with other Baptists and also extreme Racists.The Westboro Baptist “Church” is nothing more than a few dozen people, most of whom are related to the founder, who congregate in said founder’s home. Yet, despite these facts, they are the face of Christianity for a large chunk of the US population. You might want to think about why that is.

          10. ShanaC

            And so what? Last I checked home churches are a theologically viable part of the protestant tradition. Thier politics aside, there is nothing about them that screams “I’m not protestant”I never said they had the most brilliant politically, or that they are nice people I want to hang around, just that technically they have canon protestant ppractices and beliefs about jesus that would work in other protestant churches. If they all woke up tomorrow and dropped the worse of thier practices, they’d be a boring, small, right wing evangelical Baptist Church that happened to meet in a house. (so again, no true Scotsman argument)As a totally outside point: while Westboro is insane, small home churches have had, and continue have, a place in most religions (using church really sociologically broadly here). Many are quite lovely because they represent small, close knit communities that happen to meet in a home. So meeting in a home isn’t a reason to say “not real” either.

          11. thomas

            And so what?And so why are they the face of Christianity? When the media goes and digs up the worst fringe element of some other group, they are usually (and rightly) ridiculed. You shouldn’t use the bad acts of a few dozen people to smear millions. But when the media constantly covers the Westboro Baptist Church, somehow that’s just good reporting.

          12. ShanaC

            What does this comment have to do with mine? Mine was a point about theological points within Protestant christianity about the no true scotsman argument. This comment is a form of special pleading/moving the goalposts. (… )Home churches, politically disgusting churches from the US’s political point of view, ect, techically are all viable in the Protestant theological tradition, since the protestant theological tradition doesn’t really speak on US politics (per say, it does have traditions on end of days and its relationships with many countries in general), it has a variety of traditions on homes vs church buildings, it has a variety of traditions about who can minister and under what conditions, the Eucharist, when you baptise people, if you need to witness/hear voices, all sorts of things.If we wanted to, we could draw a big family tree of how all churches are related by theological traditions, beliefs and practices, and your church would be there, the russian orthodox church would be there, phalagist churches would be there, and so would westboro, All of you would relate to politics in different country locations differently, as well as local church politics differently. Nevertheless, because technically they are Christian of various stripes, we can see how they all interrelate. If we wanted to be snarky, we could give Westboro a black sheep icon in our fake family tree of churches (tee hee)Stop moving the goalpost. We agree they are gross politically. This doesn’t change how Protestantism works internally, unless you have evidence to the contrary about its theological underpinnings

          13. bsoist

            The U.S. was founded based, in part, on a central idea – “nobody can tell me what I must believe.”Many (most?) of our founding fathers, including some Christians, had no interest in setting up a Christian nation. They were leaving a Christian nation.If we were to set up a Christian nation, which version would it be?Some Christians believe that HRC is not qualified to be President, based on their doctrine, simply because of her gender. Some believe your prayers are not answered unless you actually utter the words “in Jesus name” at the end of the prayer – even if you fall asleep while praying. Others believe you are not really “saved” unless you speak in a mysterious tongue. You see where I’m going with that?

          14. ShanaC

            as someone who likes sociology of religion, I find this all a very odd turn in the history of religion in the US

          15. bsoist

            you mean the advent of the religious right?

          16. ShanaC

            no. That is expectedSome Christians believe that HRC is not qualified to be President, based on their doctrine, simply because of her gender. Some believe your prayers are not answered unless you actually utter the words “in Jesus name” at the end of the prayer – even if you fall asleep while praying. Others believe you are not really “saved” unless you speak in a mysterious tongue. compared to some issues in the great awakenings around personal salvation – seriously, speaking in tongues?I respect spirituality but that isn’t spirituality as much as training the brain the wrong way (I don’t have much love for Pentecostal leanings in christianity or other religions…to be frank..I’d rather see a return to gnosticism)

          17. bsoist

            I’d rather see a return to gnosticismI think of that sometimes too.You may know I have some experience with Christian K-12 education and I have a lot of thoughts on the matter. ๐Ÿ™‚

          18. ShanaC

            Well clearly.After I wrote that, I have to admit, my first thought was “my mitnag roots are totally showing”…I just sounded so dour

          19. DJL

            I agree. The founding Fathers did NOT want to setup an “official” government sponsored religion. That is the true meaning of the separation of church and state. But that concept has been manipulated into a complete intolerance of Christian-based values in any government function.Many scholars have pointed out (correctly) over the years that Christian “values” and Democracy work well together. Hence the reference to God many times by most of the founders. Sharia Law and Democracy to not work well together.(BTW – HRC should not be disqualified because she is woman. But because she has broken federal laws and lied about it multiple times. I have never once heard anyone say she is not fit because she is a woman.)

          20. bsoist

            I have never once heard anyone say she is not fit because she is a woman.Then you’re not really paying attention.

          21. ShanaC

            Many scholars have pointed out (correctly) over the years that Christian “values” and Democracy work well together. Hence the reference to God many times by most of the founders. Sharia Law and Democracy to not work well together.You’ve walked yourself into a meaningless version of “Christian” then by putting values in quotes.You’ve also accurately pointed out that Protestanism doesn’t really have a true sense of cannon law to make it work, and would need secularism outside of itself in order to form a body politic of communities

          22. ShanaC

            you know, you can say that about any organized group of humans and in-groups and out-groups

      1. ShanaC

        too many of the APA’s members are religious, even liberal religious, to have that be true

        1. thomas

          Freud? LOL.In 1996, Psychological Science reached the conclusion that โ€œ[T]here is literally nothing to be said, scientifically or therapeutically, to the advantage of the entire Freudian system or any of its component dogmas.”…

    2. bsoist

      Dogma – in any form – is, perhaps, our most dangerous enemy.I’m not even referring to the Islam angle on this story (not sure how much truth there is to it anyway). I’m focusing now on the anti-gay dogma.

      1. DJL

        This is a dangerous parallel that is simply incorrect. Many Christians do not support gay marriage or transgender bathrooms, because it is against our teachings. But we oppose these legally in the courts and according to the freedom of speech given to us in the Constitution.Islam’s does not allow gays. They are arrested, “re-educated” or killed. These two ideals are NOT the same. But they are frequently connected by phrases like “any gay dogma.”I will say it again: These people kidnap little girls and make sex slaves out of them. They kill gays. This is not “dogma”. It is mass hysteria that is promoted by an organized religion and finances by Government.

        1. bsoist

          I was trying to keep my comment brief. I don’t like any dogma – Islam’s included.But do not try to convince me that mainstream American Christian churches accept gays – because they do not.promoted by an organized religion and finances by Government.and if the religious right has their way, this is where we will be.

          1. James Ferguson @kWIQly

            Interestingly there is a huge difference between religious fundamentalism and religious conservatism.A christian will tell you that Christ was one of the (if not the) most outspoken opponent of ‘tradition’ and ‘liturgical dogma’ who ever lived.His death was largely at the hand of the “religious right” (Pharisees), and the organs of the state (The Sanhedrin court) and he taught to love your enemy.So to conflate “mainstream” or “organized” with “faith” or “fundamentalism” – is to risk that any message is lost.

          2. bsoist

            I’m very well educated in Christian dogma and very familiar with Christian churches in many forms.I understand the distinction you are making, but I believe dogma – insisting on believing, and/or insisting others believe in, tenets based on written assertions – is dangerous.

          3. laurie kalmanson

            tv preachers blaming hurricanes on x,y,z etc.

          4. James Ferguson @kWIQly

            I ABSOLUTELY Agree.Anyone who holds what they take to be an inerrant view clearly puts themselves into a very small club.I would add that if God provided inerrant Scripture (as many believe) – it is open to human interpretation (and there have been a few).It is thus clear that an all-powerful all-knowing God – apparently a) values the debate [or it would have been delivered in simpler form] and more importantly b) the freedom of choice [without which there can be no faith – IMO*]Explanation – A reasonable person has no choice but to believe what they take to self-evident – therefore absent doubt there is no choice and can be no faith !

          5. bsoist

            Interesting perspective. This is why I think faith exists. People just believe things and sometimes can’t explain why. I see nothing wrong with that.Two things bother me… ( with regard to this issue )1. believing something because it’s written down somewhere ( or because someone says you must )2. believing something in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary ( a creation event less than billions of years ago, people are not born gay, faith healers, etc. )

          6. James Ferguson @kWIQly

            Thanks for response (Also interesting – let me try to question is where the limit to evidence applies) .BTW – I don’t mind how people become deluded (or that they are) if they do not harm others [I agree that being written down is as moot as whether you cast stones or read tea-leaves if it is demonstrably arbitrary] – However it leaves a few questions …Thought experiment (non-disprovable so not science) – but in my view a nice piece of rhetoric ….1) Suppose we are nothing more than part of a huge state engine governed by a current set of rules (which may change).2) Suppose given current rules and state it is possible (Note #) to iterate forwards and backwards (leading to fatalism, nihilism and obvious absence of free will [ though possibly a delusion of free will] )3) If matter was at any time created it had at that local time some statefrom 1) 2) 3) Existence is eithera) eternal (no Big Bang , no creation) orb) creation can equally have happened at any time and so in any past state, because the perception of the past is identical in hindsight.c) Supposition 1) is flawedd) Since time is only defined by process, there can be no “prior” to existence.Corollary – If you choose to explore such apparent spontaneity – (You posit at least an eternal (not time bound), omnipotent (super physical) force capable of influencing that which does not ##existNote # ( We ignore the three body problem – let us assume predictable physical systems for a moment)Note ## The very fact that with our limited temporal experience we cannot conceive of a state where “not yet existing” means absolutley nothing – it seems reasonable to label; what we do not understandCall it God, Logos, The Reason, The Word (or even The Lamppost) the ideas are semantically identical – that which must exist but that cannot be explained.It “feels reasonable” – and the alternative “feels absurd” – but that does not make it so.

          7. bsoist

            It “feels reasonable” – and the alternative “feels absurd” – but that does not make it so.I agree 100% with the part after the but.I happen to believe in God, but I’ve never thought it was reasonable to do so. I think it’s rational, but not reasonable. And I think a lot of people have a lot of different names for whatever/whomever God is. And I think a lot of people do a lot of ugly shit in His/Her name.Love to talk more about this with you sometime.

          8. James Ferguson @kWIQly

            >> I think it’s rational, but not reasonable.Reads well – but that does not make it so :)So I had to look it up – “Rational – based on or in accordance with reason or logic”.Funnily enough I agree with your nuance – to the extent that I would add – being in a dictionary also “does not make it so”>> I think a lot of people do a lot of ugly shit in His/Her name.+ 100 Sadly>> Love to talk more about this with you sometime.Ditto – enjoyable exchange !

          9. ShanaC

            The Sanhedrin at best held nominal power during said same period. – you can see that from marriage and property documents that are concurrent from when Akiba ben Yosef was alive/The Bar Kochba rebbelion was ongoing. all of them were adjucated in roman court, not through Jewish court, albeit trying to use “proto-jewish” sensibilities. The Pharisees weren’t much of a religious right if you look at Mishna Yom Kippur – more accurately they were a religious left. The Sadducees/Tzadokim would technically be the religious right at the time, but their concerns were very not of the people in term of how religion worked (purity laws and who they applied to, and how much ability to explain the law was around)

          10. James Ferguson @kWIQly

            @ShanaC – Nominal power is clear, Roman respect (fear ?) of Sanhedrin workings are I think apparent when it comes to handling civic issues (Joesphus) , but most texts our respective cultures (if not you and I personally) would rely on may be discounted by the other.It is (I believe) at least clear that the “establishment” didn’t much like what Christ was up to, were keen to suppress it and relied on dogma to attempt this, He apparently cemented some novel notions of justice that for example the schools of Hillel and Shammai (did not see eye to eye on) – And in this I suppose he opposed the right wing nationalist view of the timeIf I have to stand on one foot to prove I at least have some context ๐Ÿ™‚

          11. ShanaC

            So one of the text groups I’m relying on is the Babatha Cache. Under normal circumstances it might be incredibly boring, but they are a set of property documents and matching ketubah dating from the Bar Kochba revolt found with other documents actually involved in the bar kochba revolt in the cave of letters…One of the odd things about them is most of the documents are written in triplicate, with one version in Greek as opposed to aramaic or hebrew.. There are also slight differences in the documents between language versions because of roman law. There are also differences than what stock jewish law in the areas involved would imply for the time.Seems to imply that all of the order of women (which involves inheritance and marriage, and the main concern of these documents) were actually being dealt with by the Romans in roman court, and that all of mishnayot in the order is a rabbinic ideal world.

          12. DJL

            I didn’t say that. What I said is that American Christian churches do not promote violence and hatred as a way to promote their beliefs.

          13. LE

            That above is true.Many Christians do not support gay marriage or transgender bathrooms, because it is against our teachings. This is not teaching as much as brainwashing. Which you have with all religions. That’s the reason you won’t easily convince someone not raised that way (or who doesn’t decide to convert because there is something lacking in their life) to take up some of those views of the catholic church (or another religion). In Judaism we have the same type of load of crap only about different thinks that are taught brainwashed into people. For example outdated dietary laws as well as Sabbath observance … only mentioning two out of many. Almost always it’s not based on logic reason and science it’s based on something beat into you so you believe it to be correct and don’t easily question it. Or social pressure, whatever. Control of the masses is at the root of all of this.

          14. markslater

            what he said.

          15. bsoist

            and many churches use emotional abuse as a tactic to brainwash

          16. DJL

            If “control of the masses” is the root of all evil – then modern Liberalism is right in the center, not religion. You have been brainwashed into believing that man-made global warming is a “fact”. And anyone who believes otherwise is obviously crazy. You have been brainwashed into believing that all organized religion is bad, and no facts will change your mind (correct?)Just because you hate something does not make it bad.

          17. LE

            Well to start I am not a liberal. And definitely not a lemming.And anyone who believes otherwise is obviously crazy.I don’t have an opinion on this and I am actually in no position to even know if what I read is correct. I do know though that it’s easy to prove a point with facts and figures (either side of things). That is why I hate when people quote numbers to back up arguments typically.You have been brainwashed into believing that all organized religion is badActually that is not correct. I have definitely not been brainwashed to believe this, I came to that conclusion all by myself. And I don’t believe that all religion is bad either. Just that it’s not right for me. Just like I don’t believe all unions are bad but they are not good for me. I can see benefits to unions in many cases.I definitely see the value of religion for keeping the lemmings in line. It’s a necessary evil.

          18. DJL

            then you can see how calling Christianity is “brainwashing” is very insulting to people who have made up their own minds, through personal experience, that church and God are valid beliefs. Most everyone I know has many personal experiences that support their faith.

          19. bsoist

            I know I keep saying this, but you and I need to get together and talk sometime. William told me about two years I ago that we would get along.

          20. LE

            Yeah I am a bit anti social and try to keep my online life and my personal life separate. Maybe sometime over the summer perhaps we can get together though!

          21. bsoist

            I’m not pushing you. We’ll see if we can make it happen sometime this summer. ๐Ÿ™‚

          22. bsoist

            Modern political conservatives have it backwards. Liberalism is what made America great.

          23. bsoist

            Is it your assertion that…no American Christian churches promote hatred of gays?most American Christian churches do not promote hatred of gays?

          24. DJL

            There are hundreds of different denominations that call themselves “Christian”. Each one is different. And churches have (and will continue to be) abused by various individuals and governments.All I can tell you is this: the Bible does not teach hatred of gays. Nor does any church I have ever attended in over 40 years. Have you ever read the teachings of Jesus?Do you know what MOST churches do? They spend millions of dollars sending people into third-world counties bringing education, medical supplies and aid to people who have never seen a doctor. They build houses for the poor in their own communities. They pray for sick people. (Which has been proved to be statistically valid on numerous occasions.)So why all the hate? Christians are generally too busy minding their own business to defend themselves against attack. You have no clue how much good they do in the world.

          25. LE

            They spend millions of dollars sending people into third-world counties bringing educationThat also has a great deal to do with evangelizing, in all fairness. US Government does that as well.They pray for sick people.That’s of value to the people praying, not to the sick people.

          26. DJL

            Why do you hate Christianity so much? I am just pointing out that a LOT of good is done in the name of Christians. But you just dismiss it. Isn’t this the ultimate in closed-minded thinking? (Church = all bad.)

          27. LE

            Why do you hate Christianity so much?I don’t hate Christianity (doesn’t impact me really that much) and I dissed my own religion fwiw. I don’t doubt there is a great deal of good done.Please quote what I said that makes you believe that what I said is anywhere near or equivalent of “all bad”.And yes I stand behind the evangelizing thing that Christianity does and has done. That statement doesn’t mean that they don’t do good as part of that process.

          28. Vendita Auto

            Why not AID WTF has christian to do with it, preying is what it is

          29. Vendita Auto

            Sorry I should not have risen to the bait

          30. bsoist

            That’s of value to the people praying, not to the sick people.I knew that was coming. ๐Ÿ™‚

          31. Donna Brewington White

            That’s of value to the people praying, not to the sick people.As someone who prays, I would say that the value is to both.I do love this exchange from the film Shadowlands:Harry: Christopher can scoff, Jack, but I know how hard you’ve been praying; and now God is answering your prayers.C. S. Lewis: That’s not why I pray, Harry. I pray because I can’t help myself. I pray because I’m helpless. I pray because the need flows out of me all the time, waking and sleeping. It doesn’t change God, it changes me.But, I digress. To my point, I just happen to know of a lot of sick people who have become well as a direct result of prayer. Including me.

          32. bsoist

            I do not hate anyone. Please learn a little about me before you make accusations like that. Read the substance of my comments instead of reading into them what you fear.I have been a Christian for 42 years and I’ve read the Bible many many times. I’ve studied it formally, taught it, worked in churches, and taken many teams of people to those countries you mentioned.No hate.I tried to say one simple thing – Dogma is dangerous! – and you misunderstood what I said.You believe what you want to believe, but you should be careful believing it because it’s written down somewhere.

          33. DJL

            Well, if you are a Christian, then are you not offending by people calling you “brainwashed” for what you believe? Saying you believe in “fiction”? Calling you an “ignoramus?”That is hating in my book. I’m sorry if I lumped you in there. Others are certainly in that camp.I have been doing this dance all morning. (it’s fun.) My point is that Christianity is not the same as Islam. But who knew.

          34. bsoist

            Well, if you are a Christian, then are you not offending by people calling you “brainwashed” for what you believe? Saying you believe in “fiction”? Calling you an “ignoramus?”It takes a great deal to offend me. I also cut people some slack because I know how they might feel. I know a lot of Christians (and not) who believe a lot of nonsense. If I want to be able to call it like I sees it, I’d like to give others that courtesy.That is hating in my book. I’m sorry if I lumped you in there. Others are certainly in that camp.Here at AVC? I’m not so sure. I’ve been here a long time and I get angry at comments sometimes but it has never been about faith – and I never feel hated.I have been doing this dance all morning. (it’s fun.) My point is that Christianity is not the same as Islam. But who knew.I understood your point, which is why I thought you were missing my point. I never said any two religions or ideologies were equal. I said dogma is dangerous! and I’ll say that all day. I actually do say that a lot. :)I’d love to talk with you more about these things sometime. I’m not hard to find online.

          35. ShanaC

            The bible is a hard read.

          36. bsoist

            Indeed.Terri (my wife, who I don’t think you got a chance to meet when we met ) has also read it many times. She and I are convinced that the reason we have so many problems with what some Christians believe is because we have have actually read it.

          37. ShanaC

            HA!Seriously though, it isn’t a book for amateurs. Many of the people reading it are amateurs/reading without guidance (if reading at all) – and nearly everyone reads everything in translation without context of how translation works/never sees any pieces of the bible in the original/or comparative texts (especially for the NT – it isn’t like the writers didn’t exist in time where books and other writers/thoughts didn’t exist – and as a total aside, you also see it is roughly the same period that the oral competition of the Mishna is getting started, which described moments occurring in more practical matters,, like literally what cash is worth, or how is a temple service actually done, what is a typical crop, ect ect, all of which is relevant to read the NT if that is your thing)And that is before the multiple grammars issues in the Torah. At least there is a concordance for that :)I’ve personally found it shocking that from a sociology of religion Point of View, evangelical christains and orthodox jewish people are often compared for lifestyle type belief questions (and often studies about evangelicals are used as early indicators for modern/centerist orthodox Jewish people, because it is way too difficult to study the orthodox Jewish people easily due to small numbers until after the fact) yet it is really obvious having talked to individuals in both that someone going to a christian school and someone going to an orthodox Jewish school, the orthodox Jewish grad will have a better grounding in how to read the bible even if technically the christian school will probably have covered more textual ground. If the Jewish student felt like it, they could catch up in month for the OT in bekiut (review, not depth with commentary) easily, and still come out with a better depth reading than the christian student by sheer amount of language drills and that there are public readings as part of services, with tunes, which help guide proper grammatical inflections. I never understood why there was nothing similar for the Christian students at all, especially those from evangelical protestant groups which take text seriously.

          38. Donna Brewington White

            Shana, how long is it now that you have been amazing me?I resonate with this comment, especially as someone who has formally studied theology. I don’t think you have to be a Biblical scholar to be a believer, but it is painful to hear someone spouting off beliefs without any grounding in what those beliefs really mean, or devoid of context.The joke on me is that one of my motivations for theological study (including intensive study of Koine Greek and enough Hebrew to do a word study) was to remove doubt and instead I learned to embrace mystery.Where I sometimes feel potentially subject to ridicule is that so much of my belief system is perpetuated by my experience. Whether or not it is based on “imagination” (and imagination is a powerful thing) I can’t shake the experiences. I could easily convince you that I am crazy. ๐Ÿ™‚

          39. Cam MacRae

            And you, Donna, continue to amaze me: Koine Greek AND Hebrew!I worked for a short time as an assistant librarian in a theology library. One of the senior scholars once told me that number of discrepancies between NT fragments exceeds the number of words in the entire new testament. I don’t doubt it is true.@bsoist:disqus said early that “The Bible tells the story of redemption by grace.” To this I would add “, through allegory”.

          40. ShanaC

            Donna it isn’t that impressive. Pretty much any jewish kid from a modern or centerist orthodox background in the US could do that. Same education.The sociology of religion thing is me, but my school actually kinda failed in that I’m not totally fluentThough also trust me, I’m not always nice about what I know. I yelled at someone about jewish law and business ethics here once (legally, not stealing, but by managing someone who was being paid very undermarket, jewish law would say he is stealing, and I fume at that)

          41. ShanaC

            All I can tell you is this: the Bible does not teach hatred of gays. Nor does any church I have ever attended in over 40 years. Have you ever read the teachings of Jesus?I am no expert on the NT. On the Torah, however, I have read – there are large amounts of discussions on sexual relations, including gay sex.And this is one of those moments where I wish I could hijack my friend Rabbi Josh Yuter to here.short long answers: There are a number of things that it is part of a list of involving sexual purity (and purity from idolty, since it also includes a discussion of the molech*), all of which are described at the end as to’ev/to’evah. All of these have associations of being purity through separationContemporarily, however, there are no molechs, and these practices are not common, so the idea of purity through separation is odd, and yet it is to’ev. I would say the practice is as much the bible overreaching and frowning down through hatred as much as anything else, otherwise the text could have been very different (there are other words/roots that could have been chosen aside from to’ev)

        2. Mike Sheppard

          US Muslim leaders condemned the attack on a gay nightclub in Orlando that killed 50 people, injuring at least 50 more. The Council on American-Islamic Relations called the attack a hate crime and said the group has no tolerance for extremism…

          1. DJL

            A group funded by Radial Islam! Perfect.

        3. obarthelemy

          I’m curious: where in the bible does it say anything against gay marriage and transgender bathrooms ?

    3. Sam

      I like how you take a non-partisan view of dogma. That is exactly right.I think the interesting next question becomes how we ended up in a world with such a variety of extreme beliefs.It’s easy to point to religion, but I think the answer is much more complicated than that. The news media (of all stripes). The education system. Our politicians and our celebrities… The popular belief that we have all allowed to be created is that the deck is stacked against the individual, and that is where “blind adherence to dogma” takes hold.It’s now a minority and contrarian view to believe that the world is a place where hard work over time can get you ahead in life.

    4. DJL

      No, no and no! This was a gay nightclub because in the minds of Radical Islam – gays should be killed. Jews and Christians should be killed.Equating radical Islam with other political agendas is not accurate or supported by the facts. This isn’t the Civil rights movement. There is nothing on the planet like the evil of radical Islam. How many people are going to have to die before people wake up and see this?

      1. bsoist

        There is nothing on the planet like the evil of radical Islam.Perhaps not right now, but we’ve seen the dangers of other dogmas too.Digging one’s heels in and clinging to an idea because it’s written in a book is dangerous.

        1. markslater

          exactly.APA designated this as a “mental health” issue.

        2. SubstrateUndertow

          How right you are !History is littered with these angry, hateful, dogmatic, dangerous, murderous, small-man, control freak, simpletons both religious and secular, all too often sponsored by historically poor distribution of wealth-power-education-control.This latest scourge has a value-added component, that being, a global network-effect to kindle/sustain the chain reaction between this far flung fabric of hateful mental/idealogical simpletons.Since the network-effect is here to stay our only option is to develop more effective network-effect counter measures. Most notable more network-effect tools(Apps/Messaging-structures) that continue to amplify a better distribution of wealth-power-education-control.

      2. obarthelemy

        Apparently, the guy was a unhinged, raging homophobe with a gun, and used Islam to gain justification for what he would have done anyway.The issues here are the homophobia, the unhinged, and the gun, not islam.

        1. DJL

          The problem is that Islam is the funnel for the unhinged. That is an undeniable fact in all of these events.

          1. obarthelemy

            It’s Islam now, it used to be, and still, a lot, is Christianity.

          2. DJL

            Huh? Please send a list of all the mass shootings committed by Christians in the last 10 years.

          3. SubstrateUndertow

            10 years ???How is your 10-year analytic window a realistic perspective on such a historical recurring problem. Is that 10-year historical perspective based on some Texas only school history book ?

          4. DJL

            Okay, you can expand back since the invention of firearms. Christians do not invoke Jesus and then run into a building killing people. Not sure why that is so hard to understand and so controversial.Christians do not outlaw other religions. The bible does not justify killing in the name of God. Christians believe that women are equal to men. They do not require 5 male witnesses to verify a rape. (the list just goes on an on…) Christianity and Islam are not the same. You can look that up on Google.

          5. Gregory Magarshak

            I agree that there is a huge problem that there are at least a million Jihadists and Islamists. And a huge problem that hundreds of millions of people live under theocratic Islamic governments today.But that does not mean we should be having the same reaction to all Muslims in the USA that we had, say, to Japanese that we put into internment camps in WW2. Most people are peaceful and just want to live their life. What exactly do you propose to do?Islamism is a mind virus that escaped containment because our government funded Mujahideen against the USSR, an empire built by another political mind virus at the time. And for decades, we toppled regimes for oil prices (Iran) and propped up theocratic ones (Saudis). And then you wonder why there is the growth of Political Islam? We funded the spread of the very thing we are claiming to fight now, while extending our military around the world and spending more than the next 20 countries combined. The “war on terror” is a big source of funding for the military-industrial complex and the Pentagon (which has somehow misplaced $8.7 trillion dollars with no accountability but always needs more funding). Technology which is then sold off secondhand to the police to use against our own citizens. If you care about gun rights to defend against some future government, consider how much money has been spent in the war on terror and now finding its way into your own town. Don’t you think it lowers the barrier to “crowd control”?Millions of people around the world have been killed. Iraq and Libya are now cesspools of anarchy. We are still openly “arming and training rebels” against the government in Syria, etc. And you are looking at the result and saying “Islam is bad”? That’s now how you fix the virus. By your logic, would you propose to cure malaria by quarantining all Africans?

          6. DJL

            Greg – I don’t think anyone is proposing WW2 like activities. It is certainly a huge challenge with no easy answers. But your recognition of the problem is the first step in meaningful discussion. Many people (certainly on this blog) want to bury their head in the sand and write off the global rise of radical Islam. To me that is a grave injustice to those who have been killed.

          7. ShanaC

            You just haven’t met those people (unlike me, who has to walk away from a parent who does believe in internment camps for Muslims)Radicalism exists in all religions and political groups. Otherwise I’m at a total loss of how I have family who married into Kach ( jewish terror group on the cia international terror watch list) and how I’ve met and had dinner with(and hell, even had one person in my high school class. He ended up permanently and I think illegally moving to Hebron.) Hill top youth, which if you have read israeli media in recent months/years have burned babies alive for being born Palestinian and Muslim.Radicalism arises because of dissatisfaction with society and assumptions about what is better, and what is righter and truer. Be careful what you advocate for and to whom, because you might have to stop your own radicals soon

          8. ShanaC

            On further thought, in part because I think you’re a decent human underneath it allWhat bothers me about your comments is that they aren’t much different from many comments I heard growing up, nor comments I heard my year in seminary in israel. Modern/ centerist orthodox jews, especially those who make aliya for ideological reasons relating to faith, are pretty common targets to join ultra right wing parties once they get to israel and/Or become/have thier children become terrorists, from both the US and Israel’s point of view. Ideologically the terrorist point of view is only a step further (and sometimes not at all) because they not counterweighed by other theology principles. Usually those principles are considered unimportant/less important/need to be disregarded even though if one were to seriously study on one’s own that would turn out to be ahistorical and patently false (from experience). Having actually sat through pseudo recruiting through networks of my own peers, the danger of poor education in one’s own theology and how any group can breed radicalism is much higher to me than that in Islam.So when someone says, “the United states was founded on Christian principles” that’s as much of a signal there is a fire to me as someone saying jabotinsky didn’t take it far enough.

          9. bsoist

            Christians do not outlaw other religions.Where have you been? Much of the political debate in our country is caused by Christians insisting everyone see things the way they do. The Republican nominee for President wants to ban entry of Muslims to the U.S.The bible does not justify killing in the name of, what?Christians believe that women are equal to men.Actually, many (most?) do not. I do, and I found myself in the minority on this issue among Christians all the time.They do not require 5 male witnesses to verify a rape.Very thin ice here. Very often in cases of rape – and domestic abuse – you will read something along the lines of “police found no evidence …” which seems to hold more weight in people’s minds than the eyewitness tesimony when that testimony is from the mouth of a woman.Christianity and Islam are not the same. You can look that up on Google.True on both counts.

          10. DJL

            How do you even begin to address these points? There is not one shed of fact in there based on a true understanding of the Bible or Christians. Let me guess, atheist? Most of what you know about Christians you read in the New York Times and the Huffington Post?There has never been a case where Christians (or Republicans) voted to outlaw another religion or point of view. There is no Bible verse that promotes murder in the name of Jesus. (Please produce one) There is no teaching (or commonly held belief) that women are inferior to men. The rape deal comes right from Sharia Law. This isn’t hard.I don’t know where you get this stuff, but you really have no idea what Christians believe.

          11. ShanaC

            How do you even begin to address these points? There is not one shed of fact in there based on a true understanding of the Bible or Christians. Let me guess, atheist? Most of what you know about Christians you read in the New York Times and the Huffington Post?Time OutActually, he’s the IT administrator at a prominant christain school.I don’t know where you get this stuff, but you really have no idea what Christians believe.Most christians don’t! that is true!I suspect you don’t eitherWhy would John Calvin consider Jewish people overall* about icons of Jesus?Which churches in the US agree with John Calvin’s position in this regard?Do you agree with this position as fundamental?why or why not?*if someone here goes “but what about the meiri” – go away, I know, and you’re misreading the meiri vis a vis John Calvin

          12. bsoist

            We already had this conversation. I’ve read the Bible dozens of times, studied it formally, and taught it to others. I’ve attended at least 2500 church services and worked in church leadership at several churches. I even served as a campus pastor for a large mega-church you probably know well.I also attended a congregationalist school from 7th-12th grades and attended a Baptist University, where my brother still works and now my nephew attends.If you are implying that I am not really a Christian because I don’t think like you do, save your breath. I’ve heard that one before.The Bible tells the story of redemption by grace. Many Christians layer on top of that a lot of stuff that’s not part of the message.

          13. ShanaC

            Okay, you can expand back since the invention of firearms. Christians do not invoke Jesus and then run into a building killing people. Not sure why that is so hard to understand and so controversial.Catholics VS Hugenots!

          14. Gregory Magarshak

            To be fair, take DJL’s comments about Christians *today*. Christians have been able to have disestablishment – separation of Church and State. Most Christians today live in liberal democracies. Not so with Muslims. It’s a valid point if DJL is careful to specify compare Christians *today* with Muslims *today*. The Christian groups (such as LRA and Phalangists) did radicalize after Muslim attacks and carried out reprisals, but they are quite insignificant compared to, say, Boko Haram, ISIS and Taliban. And there is very little to compare to Saudi Arabia, Sudan, and other governments where religion plays a major role — almost all the countries with a state religion today are Islamic — so hundreds of millions of people live under a system which oppresses freethinkers, gays, women, has very little religious freedom. Let’s be real … when we talk about women’s rights, gay rights, etc. the majority Christian countries do far better. One could say that the QuRan makes it harder to separate Mosque and State considering it’s got far more political prescriptions on how to run a society than the New Testament. But that doesn’t mean ALL Muslims are “out to get us” an more than all residents of the USSR were “out to get us”.

          15. ShanaC

            I also really would not want to run into a Phalangist any time soonBy far and away the best example would be the troubles then.

          16. Drew Meyers

            If you go back to the crusades they did.

          17. DJL

            I’m sure you are a stand-up guy, Drew, But this is perhaps the most lame argument ever made to equate Islam with Christianity. (But Obama did it, so who can blame anyone?) The Crusades were in fact a response to massive grasp for power by Muslims, but this can easily be determined by basic research. But it was history.This is pretty simple. In the last two years, there have been multiple mass murders, across multiple continents, where the killers pledged allegiance to ISIS. There has not been ONE instance where the killer did in the name of Jesus. These are facts. So anyone who tries to equate these two (based on mass murders) is really just creating fiction to justify an opinion.

          18. obarthelemy

            any bigotry, including religion, is a funnel. islam is only the currently most fashionable one, they’re all the same.

        1. DJL

          Nobody is suggesting that ALL mass killings are the result of radical Islam. What I am suggesting (along with leaders in the security communities of major Western countries) is that Islam is very good at recruiting people who are on the edge. It is a funnel. Ignoring it makes no sense to me.I think that blaming guns is equally faulty. Take Chicago – the strictest gun laws and near the top in shootings every year.

          1. Gregory Magarshak

            Well if you want to be fair then consider the correlation of Islam with mass shootings, vs the correlation of availability of assault weapons with mass shootings.The USA has over half of all the mass shootings in the world. The Onion runs the same story every few months just changing the names and places:…How many mass shootings were done by Islamists? If anything, most mass shootings were done by angry white men. But mass shootings are actually only a small percentage of gun violence in the USA. Most of the violence occurs in areas of mass poverty.I am not advocating banning guns in the USA, since the ship has sailed. But blaming Islam for what the data says is more a technology problem, is like blaming republicans for most car accidents. It’s just not the main factor.Is political Islam dangerous? Sure. Just like Communism and Nazism were dangerous ideologies. In fact, there is a lot of similarity. But when a mass shooting happens, I don’t think blaming Islam should be the hammer for every nail.

          2. DJL

            Only if the shooter claims allegiance to radical Islam and was interviewed by the FBI three different times for his association with Islamic clerics and radicals. Is it okay to blame radical Islam in that case?If this was a Christian, you would have every nut-job in the media (and Obama) going on about how religion fuels hate. But when it is Islam, let’s blame the guns. Classic double standard.

          3. ShanaC

            we’ve had that happen. There was a mass shooting at a historically black congregation in Charleston under the obama administration by a white man who was/is nominally christian.…Obama still called for Gun Control.

    5. Gregory Magarshak

      I am not sure that this particular mass shooter was a very knowledgeable adherent of Islam. Certainly the other person arrested yesterday in LA with pipe bombs and an assault weapon intending to “harm the LGBT parade” was not a Muslim. In fact, most mass shooters in the USA are not Muslims.The common factor in all these mass shootings is the availability of assault weapons. But there probably isn’t much we can do about it now, the barn door is open. http://www.huffingtonpost.c…Remember the horrific attacks in Paris? 150 people were killed. In the USA, that happens every 2 days. If you don’t count suicides then every 5 or 6 days. The USA has 300M people and France has 70M people, so to be fair we’d have to multiply by another factor of 4. So that means, all things being equal, something proportionally on the scale of the Paris attacks happens every month in the USA!It’s easy to blame “them” after the attacks. It sells easily. But it doesn’t lead to anything good.

      1. ShanaC

        it seems that a lot are in weak economic/social positions though. shoring people up economically, giving them access to jobs, might help.

        1. Gregory Magarshak

          Yes, most gun violence is linked to areas of widespread poverty. That is the strongest correlation to gun violence as far as I know.

    6. William_JD

      Of course, the easiest answer is separation.

    7. Peter Beddows

      Good call on your first two sentences above @liad:disqus. Furthermore, it is a ” blind adherence to a dogmatic ideology” that is a mischaracterization or misinterpretation of the actual text within the Koran; a deliberate misrepresentation that meets the agenda and objectives of the leaders of ISIL.According to Fareed Zakaria in a CNN Special the current day challenges presented by Daesh/ISIL stem from an incident in 1949 in Greely, Colorado.Quote: “”Baby its cold outside” was playing on an old gramophone at a church dance. An devoutly religious Muslim Egyptian student attending a local college there happened to stop in. He was appalled by what he saw; by what he considered was absolutely morally incomprehensible and reprehensible (paraphrasing)”. And from that one incident, the rest of the ideology has evolved into today’s version of “Radical Islam”.If you have a chance to watch this documentary, I think you will find it very informative and interesting.

  10. JimHirshfield


  11. Quantella Owens

    This is going to sound very ass-&^%$-ish and I don’t mean it to, I swear. I was just looking at the last “Fun Friday” and noticed that it had 200+ comments. Meanwhile, this very serious post on a very sad topic has less than 20. I think it speaks to a general lack of interest in others vs ourselves and it colors everything we-meaning humanity in general, not the AVC community-do, think about and react to. It does not bode well for the next little while, but long-term it probably means our great awakening is nearer. It will probably hurt a great deal-a great war or an environmental disaster of huge proportions-but we will probably see it for the eye opener it will be and react accordingly. Of course, the lack of comments could just be because it is really early yet.

    1. Donna Brewington White

      That’s quite a conclusion to draw.Not only is it very early (not even 5:00 a.m. on the West Coast), in the Friday post, Fred asked a direct question.Also, in a tragic situation like this, it is hard to know what to say. People need to have the freedom to process grief in their own way without being judged. For some, this is a time for silence.I don’t know about you, but I am much more talkative at a party than at a wake.

      1. LE

        Also, in a tragic situation like this, it is hard to know what to say.More to the point in tragic and/or sensitive situations people would tend to be more PC than when talking about baseball or investments.

      2. Quantella Owens

        I made an effort to exclude this community in my comment and I pointed out that it was early. So I guess your attack was …what? Peremptory? I made a general observation about the state of humanity. I guess you require an apology for your seemingly willful misunderstanding of what I wrote. Sorry, Mizz White. And by the way, I sincerely hope the rest of the AVC community really reads what I wrote before rushing to judgment.

        1. Donna Brewington White

          No, I don’t require an apology. Not at all.

    2. fredwilson

      Patience my friend. I predict this post will have well north of 200 comments.

      1. Donna Brewington White

        You are nicer than I.

    3. Mike Zamansky

      Not as much to say here. The sorrow, outrage, frustration is probably pretty universal. Not as much room for discussion.The mesaure of this post is not in comments. Even though we can’t actually measure it, the measure of this post is in donations given, pints of blood donated, and legislators prodded.

  12. John Fein

    Here are a couple more options for helping: GoFundMe page that has raised over $1.3M for the victims’ families:…. Also, Equality Florida to get more information on vigils, counseling, and blood drives happening across the state:

  13. Pointsandfigures

    ISIS must be stopped and defeated, now. I have to get back into the habit of giving blood, because we are going to need it.

    1. fredwilson

      I believe ISIS is hate. It is the devil. It is an ideology. It is a belief system. Sure it may be an organization just like Al Qaeda but all of these groups are an expression of the same hate mongering intolerance and a desire to go back to the middle ages. That is what must be stopped. That feeling. That ideology. That hatred

      1. Pointsandfigures

        In the words of the bartender that runs this joint, “Yupppp”

      2. panterosa,

        It is the opposite of Carol Dweck’s Growth Mindset.

      3. LE

        Unfortunately when you have a group of people that have been brainwashed since birth it is near impossible to reverse this type of thinking. Certainly not with logic and rationale. Consider all of the things that you think are right and what it would take to get you to flip on things that you believe in that you have been raised on.

    2. Tom Labus

      Hatred has always existed and will continue to exist. What has not always existed is access to auto assault weapons if you’re a lunatic.

      1. sigmaalgebra

        Access to “auto assault weapons” is not so easy. They are illegal in the US Semi-automatic rifles? Those are legal.Did the Orlando terrorists use auto assault weapons?

  14. Matt Zagaja

    “Illness, prejudice and ignorance will always be with us. But the guns don’t have to be.”…I am no longer shocked nor surprised that in a nation where assault weapons are so readily available, that this sort of thing regularly occurs. Our voters and policy makers have made a choice, and yesterday we again paid the price for that choice. Our bill for a broad interpretation of our second amendment is charged in bullets and paid in lives.

    1. sigmaalgebra

      “Assault weapons” are just semi-automatic rifles styled to look like military M-16s, AK-47s, etc. Talking about “assault weapons” is just a way to ban all semi-automatic guns — 22s, shot guns, etc.Making guns illegal will keep law abiding people from having guns but won’t keep criminals from having guns. Then, just why some people are so eager to keep law abiding people from having guns is beyond me. Besides, that effort seems to conflict strongly with the Second Amendment.In particular, just why, when some criminal uses a gun, so many people say again that we should respond by saying that law abiding people should not have guns is totally beyond me. That’s one I can’t understand.

      1. Matt Zagaja

        Putting a lock on my door doesn’t keep a burglar from busting through it with TNT or a chainsaw either, yet I still do it. We don’t deploy magic 100% perfect solutions to our problems, they don’t exist. But we can certainly turn levers that can improve things.

        1. sigmaalgebra

          For some ISIS or Al Qaeda sponsored attack, I don’t see that US gun laws will do much good. E.g., such laws didn’t do any good at all recently in Paris. Besides, the Boston bomber used, what, a pressure cooker and not a gun? So, banning guns would not have stopped the Boston wack-os. For wars of drug dealers, they, too, will still find ways to kill.I’m not seeing where taking currently legal guns from law abiding US citizens will do much good. Also, we will be violating some of the spirit of the Second Amendment. Maybe the founding fathers only meant muskets, but I suspect I sort of like the stronger interpretation of the Second Amendment.Lots of things kill: Cars, natural gas, illegal use of legal drugs, knives, etc.I suspect that the big push to ban semi-automatic guns or all guns is driven by some things not very clear. I can’t figure out what the heck those things are.

          1. LE

            Lots of things kill: Cars, natural gas, illegal use of legal drugs, knives, etc.People want an easy solution. They are not interested in considering the facts relative to how many people are in this country vs. our population. They cite raw numbers that make headlines not probabilities. Guns are available already and they don’t degrade in landfills or stop working like cars will, or go out of style. As far as “nobody needs a AK-47” well I don’t for sure but I recognize that for some people this is their hobby and past time. I am not sure that I want to make a judgement on what someone should find fun to do and prevent it from happening. Why not outlaw violent video games? Why not outlaw the fast car that I buy because Paul Walker killed someone in his? What about the cost to society from kids playing football in high school? And so on.

          2. sigmaalgebra

            An AK-47 is automatic, that is full automatic, and that has been banned in the US going way back. What is legal now in the US is semi-automatic, rifles, shotguns, and pistols.In the US an assault rifle is just a semi-automatic rifle styled to look like an AK-47, M-16, etc. The difference is just styling. The people who want to ban semi-automatic guns or all guns talk about banning “assault rifles” which means semi-automatic rifles.Heck, in childhood I had a friend my age who had a semi-automatic 22 — could put two dozen or so cartridges in the thing before having to reload. He lived in a rural area, NW Tennessee, and did some target practice in his backyard. His father was likely the leading beer distributor for much of NW Tennessee. His father was a darned good salesman and businessman. Sure, he had his warehouse next to a railroad siding, and his wife helped with the office paperwork. When the Dad bought the gun, he also bought a full case of ammo!Yes, when I was a child, for a while Dad had a fully automatic shotgun! So, could have one cartridge in the chamber and, IIRC, three more. Then pull the trigger and let loose as soon as can and, still, fire four times! If have good aim at a bird, won’t get even feathers!Why? It was (still is, in my brother’s house) a Remington 12 gauge shotgun made over an old Browning patent. Well, Dad had done a lot of hunting with it, and he wore out a crucial piece in the trigger mechanism which, then, made the gun full automatic. He contacted Remington and arranged to send the gun to them for repairs. They did the repairs, and now the gun is semi-automatic as intended!There seems to be a pattern: It’s really easy to get people in some big cities, especially NYC, all up on their hind legs about various dangers, especially guns and cars. And the NYT has gotten a lot of eyeballs stimulating irrational, nonsense hysteria about CO2.But the flyover states and the South, nearly all the people are okay with cars, guns, and CO2.E.g., my wife was from a farm in Indiana: Lots of luck getting some Indiana guy with a family farm and a pickup truck all worried about cars, trucks, CO2, and guns.Arkansas? Heck, they grow a lot of rice and sometimes deliberately leave a little in the fields so that in the fall the ducks migrating south along the Mississippi Flyway will stop by for a snack and, thus, provide some good duck hunting. Yes, for some such duck hunting, they get up about 3 AM, pile into a pickup truck with guns, some dogs, etc., head for the fields, put out the decoys, get into a duck blind, all nicely before dawn, and then try to have a good day of hunting. So, right, they are using a truck, burning gasoline, generating CO2, shooting some guns, killing some ducks, having some dogs swimming in ice water, cooking lunch over an open fire, generating more CO2, etc. Welcome to try to talk them out of this if you want, but I don’t expect much success!Same for upland bird hunting, deer hunting, etc.NYC — lighten up. For the NYT, use that to help start the fire when cook lunch!For the terrorists? Hmm, that’s one more reason to have guns. If want a change for the better, then permit fully automatic rifles! Two or three AK-47s under the bar at that club in Orlando could have helped a lot!

          3. LE

            So, right, they are using a truck, burning gasoline, generating CO2Well my favorite is always suburban housewives/dad’s in their large suv’s hauling the kids to sports practice who also claim to care about the environment. But they think what they do is justified and probably look down on duck hunting (which doesn’t run the risk of lifelong injury).Cars? My stepson went to drive a gocart yesterday on some school outing (yes on Sunday). To me, when I was growing up, that would have been the pinnacle of excitement in my life an activity like that. My stepson liked it but I don’t think he loved it. He also has no interest at all in the cars that I buy. When I was growing up the car your dad or a friends dad drove carried a great deal of importance. Hence the movie Risky Business can’t imagine that movie being made today.

          4. JoeK

            That does not make sense. We had gun-based mass murders before we had violent video games. Why not outlaw fast cars? Is that question for real? Because students do not get murdered in the classrooms by fast cars. And as for the point about how many guns there already are right now, that’s not a problem. You start from somewhere. It may take time, but your grandchildren will get to live in a world in which they don’t have to worry about getting gunned to death in a cinema. You don’t pass these laws to fix the problem today, it may take a generation or two to fix the mess, but it gets fixed eventually.

          5. LE

            We had gun-based mass murders before we had violent video games.It is possible that violence in popular culture, the increase of violence, (games, movies) has certainly added some exposure that has increased violence in society. But as I said so has the media and the 24 hour news cycle as well as twitter and social media. I am not making a suggestion as much as just pointing out a few things that all add to an increase.

          6. bsoist

            Lots of things kill: Cars, natural gas, illegal use of legal drugs, knives, reason we regulate all of those things

  15. Tracey Jackson

    In a time when so many of us feel helpless, sad and powerless, this is a wonderful way to do something. Of course the problem is so much bigger and scarier than any one person or group can amend, but this Fred makes me feel like I can help a little today. Thank you. I shall repost on all my sites.

  16. Tom Evslin

    I applaud your love and generosity but donโ€™t think it can be our only response. Or, putanother way, we have an obligation to protect those we love and ourselves.To me that means attacking the head of the ISIS snake, which is in Raqqa at the moment. That will greatly diminish ISISโ€™ ability to either command or inspire. Destroying Raqqameans civilian casualties (collateral damage is the euphemism). Allowing ISISto exist means continual civilian casualties both in the places they occupy andthe places they threaten. We have allowed the cancer to metastasize and,unfortunately, the operation will be more traumatic than if done earlier โ€“ butless catastrophic than if done even later.A government which canโ€™t be trusted to do its basic job of defending the homeland gives riseto the fear that gives fuel to demagogues like Trump. But, even that aside, when at war (ISISdeclared it, we didnโ€™t) you allow your enemy no refuge much less a capital.

  17. LaVonne Reimer

    I went to church yesterday. My way of being in community. The scripture reading was I Corinthians 13; had been set for some time. I had heard it many times but this time it struck me as unimaginably poignant. Some excerpts: 2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 4 Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant 5 or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; 6 it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. 7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

    1. sigmaalgebra

      Yes, I saw that several times as a child but didn’t really get it. A few months ago, I saw it again and finally did get it. It’s darned insightful. That people understood it 2000+ years ago and expressed it so clearly is impressive, both for their insight and for the credibility of what they said.

      1. LaVonne Reimer

        Right there you captured later portions of the chapter! I like that sense of how we understand only parts of how profound it is but more and more over time.

    2. bsoist

      Some churches do accept everyone and we are very grateful for that. I hope yours does.

      1. LaVonne Reimer

        I referenced church with mixed emotions because my experience in church has not been great. I had not gone in ages but found a Collegiate church in my neighborhood (Ft Washington) that is incredibly diverse with a strong LGBT community. It has a theological core but holds it with an open heart. In general, this is how I am experiencing living in NYC. That is, its incredible diversity and vibrancy is heart-opening.

        1. bsoist

          I’m glad to hear it. I was never hurt by the church, but I have seen many others who have been. There are good ones.

  18. Shaun Dakin

    The NRA knows you will move on with the latest (Trump) outrage, you always do.Will you this time?I wake up, again, with YAPI (yet another profile image) dedicated to YAMS (yet another mass shooting) with the perverse hope that THIS TIME WILL BE DIFFERENT.This time, the people that were murdered by the easy access to guns in America would not have died in vain, sacrificed to the God of the gun.I don’t have much hope. Really.* I used to *VA tech? 32 murdered by a gun. Surely, something would be done.Gabby Giffords, a US congresswoman, surely Congress would act.Sandy Hook. 26 murdered by a gun. Children. Babies really. Now something would be done.Aurora. A movie theatre. Something would be done.President Obama cried. Something would be done. Surely.Each time the NRA would wait. Wait it out. See what was being done.And then crush any hope of “doing something”.* Destroy it *Assault weapons ban? FREEDOM!Background checks for all purchases of guns? FREEDOM!Not selling guns to people on the terror watch list? FREEDOM!After Sandy Hook…I remember being on Capitol Hill, outside the House and Senate at 2 am reading the list of names of people that had been murdered by a gun just since Sandy Hook and the night before the shameful rejection of background checks. There were 1000s of names and we were taking turns reading each out loud individually.I was moved, of course, but also understood that these deaths, 90 a day on average, were simply the white noise of FREEDOM according to the NRA.Why do I continue to have hope? Sometimes I don’t.Sometimes I’m ready to give up and move to a sane country, for the sake of my son and family. A nation that doesn’t allow civilians to own however many guns they want because of FREEDOM.A nation that has not gone mad for FREEDOM.I don’t know about you, but I could do with less FREEDOM and more life and love.Will you act? Will you fight back.The NRA knows that you will move on, you always do.30 actions you can take on #guncontrol now http://Www.30guncontrolactionsyouc...

    1. sigmaalgebra

      Sorry, but keeping law abiding people from having guns will do next to nothing to keep criminals and especially ISIS terrorists from having guns.A nation that doesn’t allow civilians to own however many guns they want because of FREEDOM.France is that way, but they still had 100+ killed by some ISIS terrorists who did have guns.

      1. JoeK

        This hateful thug was a law abiding citizen too, until he decided to use his gun to break the law.

        1. sigmaalgebra

          Maybe there were some prior hints. E.g., I can’t believe that he called 911 and said that he was part of ISIS or some such on just some thing of the previous 15 minutes. IIRC, being part of ISIS is illegal in the US.

        2. sigmaalgebra

          Update: I just readhttp://www.businessinsider….on the Orlando wacko. He was deep into at least sympathy for ISIS, Al Qaeda, and, really, the rest of radical Islam. Is motivations were not just some thing of the last day or so. Common sense says that there were some strong symptoms well before he started shooting.

  19. James Ferguson @kWIQly

    I read today (according to the father of gunman Omar Mateen) as reported in The Telegraph. ‘Gays should be punished by God’If a human accords God super-human status, it is a stupid arrogance to tell that God what to do. It is (as a side-note) also a blasphemy to any believer.So beyond evil this is nihilist however you look at it – and in nihilism there is (by definition) nothing of value. The elimination of something of no value can constitute no loss.In this I include access to weaponry by the public.

    1. bsoist

      Even they don’t understand their own dogma. I don’t want to spell out where they have it wrong for fear of taking the conversation in an ugly direction ( and be seen as supporting something I don’t) but that six word quote gets it so wrong.

      1. James Ferguson @kWIQly

        Agreed – I admit am somewhat unclear on where I stand on sexualityHere are bi-polar extremes (both true)A) I have gay relatives who I love unquestioninglyB) I experience gut reactions that some might label homophobicPerhaps we are products of our culture and generation ?However – here I am clear ….I do stand for tolerance, and patience just as my parents showed it to me.If I disagree with someone – that is better than not knowing what they think.If I can learn from them – that is better than not learningIf they can learn from me – I should welcome them and make it easyIf we can agree to differ – that is also OKBut to hate because of difference (or despite similarity) is unacceptable -In fact to hate is unacceptableAnd I believe it is right to protect victims from abusers – generally – even if that requires force

  20. Sebastien Latapie

    Completely agree – it’s so easy to channel this grief and tragedy into blame and more hate, when real answer needs to be more love. Charlie O’Donnell had a great post on this as well today, resonated with me: http://www.thisisgoingtobeb

  21. BillMcNeely

    Fred thanks for your generosity . For everybody the best action to take change the situation is to write your representives and ask for a constitutional convention to amend the 2nd Amendment if that’s viewpoint. Its an uphill battle for the topic deserves a national debate

    1. Twain Twain

      THIS as much as the Crowdrise campaign.The gun dogma is as life-destroying as religious dogma.

  22. bsoist

    This impacted our family in a very personal and profound way. We do have a few friends in that area and they are safe, but that is really just the tip of the iceberg for us. Hatred toward LGBTQ community is something we’ve been fighting for a long time, and on 12/14/15 it became very personal to us.I’m so very sad for the many families impacted in such a tragic way, and for the many that will have to deal with emotions some of us couldn’t possibly be able to relate to.

    1. sigmaalgebra

      I’m sorry: The attack has essentially nothing to do with gays. Instead, radical Islam and ISIS are out to kill all of us. They select gays only as an early target because their religion is especially bitter about gays. But ISIS has oil and, thus, oil money from Iraq, Syria, and, now, Libya and will buy a nuke and explode it in NYC ASAP, against gays and everyone else. We have to defend ourselves.

      1. bsoist

        You’re missing my point entirely.I was not making any assertions about the cause of this tragedy.I am saddened because so many people hate gays. THIS triggers all of that and brings the discussion to the forefront.

        1. sigmaalgebra

          I have nothing against gays. My view is that it is a horrible lifestyle, but they should be free to do that if they want — but the CDC may have some recommendations.For “hating” gays, that’s not good.For the Orlando killings, I don’t think that “hating” gays had much to do with it. Yes, maybe the wacko who did the shooting saw two men kissing? Even if so, I don’t think that hating or hating gays had much to do with that shooting, or the San Bernardino shooting, the Paris shooting, the Boston bomber, …, or 9/11.Instead, it’s simpler and as in my long post here today: Any group in Islam regards everyone else as an infidel and then says that any infidel must either convert to that version of Islam or be killed. Simple. And not a joke. Not all Muslims want to execute on this idea, but too many do.I’m not sure there is much ordinary “hating” involved: It’s totally clear that ISIS wants to kill me. They don’t even know me. I doubt that they personally, emotionally hate me. Still, they want to kill me. And I’m not gay. But ISIS just regards me as an infidel, and they want to kill all infidels, including essentially everyone in the US and Europe.As soon as ISIS can get and deploy some WMDs against the US or Europe, they will. They will kill 100, 1000, …, 1 million, 10 million, 100 million, 1 billion, and more, as soon as they can. “Hate”? Maybe not! Instead they just want to kill 5 billion people. We should know that. Being gay has next to nothing to do with it. Hate has next to nothing to do with it. They just want to kill ALL infidels, and that’s 5+ billion people. In particular, they would be just totally thrilled to level NYC.None of this is an exaggeration or a joke, guys. Am I getting through yet?

          1. LE

            I have nothing against gays. My view is that it is a horrible lifestyle, but they should be free to do that if they wantWhat is interesting about the gay community is that they have different financial needs, are a more mobile workforce, and are available to do many jobs that men with families and/or children can’t afford to do because of those obligations. Without children they can work hours or at jobs (many lower paying) that a father or mother can’t. I know people are going to think this is a strange and un pc thing to say but all this is a net gain for society. I don’t think that gays having families will ever rise to the level of heterosexual couples either.

        2. sigmaalgebra

          Late update: I just saw athttp://www.businessinsider….an article on the Orlando wacko. IIRC, the article didn’t even mention gays as a motivation. Instead the article mentioned a lot in motivation — the wacko was deep into at least sympathy for ISIS, Al Qaeda, and essentially all of radical Islam.For what his big problem was, maybe he just wanted his magic carpet ride to Allah and 72 virgins.

  23. DJL

    Let’s please not gloss over this. Radical Islam is at the heart of this. It is a breeding and training ground for hate – but targeted hate. I hope this wakes up some of the Liberals of the US, who push for gay rights and then defends Islam at every turn. If Islam becomes a majority, there will be no gay rights. There will be no women’s rights.Oh, and don’t forget that we are bringing in more of these from Syria every day. God bless these families. God help the US leadership to wake up about Islam.

  24. sigmaalgebra

    Fred, good. Really good of you.But, let me predict: There will be more such attacks, right along, and growing, getting worse, a lot worse.Why? Well, yesterday somewhere I read that Obama doesn’t want to say “radical Islamic terrorism” because he does not want to say that the US is at war with a “religion”. Well, maybe he said some such thing; maybe he believes it.But, whatever Obama believes, IMHO Islam is not just a religion. Instead, in an Islamic community or country, Islam runs nearly everything in life short of how to tie shoes: So, Islam runs dress codes, codes of social behavior, marriages, diets, architecture, education, the legal system, government, foreign policy, and, yes, religion.And, apparently each Islamic community believes that under Islam they are supposed to regard everyone else as an infidel and either get them to convert to that case of Islam or kill them. Sure, not all Muslims execute on this belief all the time.But for details on how Islam and, in particular, their Qur’an, calls for such murder, can see, say,Pamela Geller, Muslim Offers $10,000 to Anyone Who Can Show the Qurโ€™an Commands Terror; Where Do I Pick Up My Check?. 30 Mar 2016. at…Just now, it appears that the Islamic group ISIS is taking seriously what P. Geller describes.IIRC, currently ISIS is saying:(1) They are at war with the US and all of Western Civilization and want to destroy both.(2) They have many of their soldiers in Europe and the US and ready to attack.IIRC, ISIS is Sunni Islam and Iran is Shiite Islam. Well, Iran commonly states “Death to America” and “Death to Israel”.Sure, maybe(1) Islam is really a “religion of peace”, and any violence, terrorism, murder, etc. is just a perversion of that peaceful religion.(2) ISIS, Iran, and other Islamic groups are just saying such things about murder and death and don’t really mean them.(3) It is best if the US and Europe try not to mention that many Muslims would like to murder people in the US and Europe.(4) It is much better if the US and Europe certainly not indicate that they are making war on “radical Islam” and also much better if we don’t even say radical Islam.Sorry, I don’t believe these last (1)-(4).Instead, I take the stated desires to kill and destroy seriously. And I believe that as soon as those Muslims can get a WMD and deploy it, they will.As a result, I believe that the US and Europe in their own countries must:(1) Regard radical Muslims as more dangerous than the Nazis of the 1930s and 1940s and treat them at least that seriously.(2) While fully honoring the legal system, and in the US, the Constitution, have national security and law enforcement look for suspicious Muslims and, then, track them. Groups should be infiltrated. Intelligence should be gathered. Any suspicious Muslim not a full citizen should be deported immediately.In the US, we can do such for mafia and illegal drug organizations and now must do even more for radical Muslims.(3) Muslim groups, e.g., mosques and communities with concentrations of Muslims must be monitored for suspicious persons and activities.(5) All Muslims in the US not US citizens should be deported ASAP.(6) Entry into the US by Muslims, people from areas with concentrations of Muslims, and from Islamic countries should be severely restricted. Everyone must be thoroughly vetted or not admitted.(7) The US and Europe, e.g., NATO, hopefully with the help of Russia, should destroy ISIS.(8) The US must monitor Iran very carefully.(9) The rest of the Muslims in the world should be monitored, from West Africa to the Mideast to South Asia to the Western Pacific, at least.Why now? The reasons are:(1) In areas with concentrations of Muslims, the near strangle hold on all aspects of life by the Islamic religious leadership.(2) Muslim culture that results in a huge flow of young men hundreds of years behind in their educations, unemployed, and eager to die in battle.(3) Islamic culture that has each part of Islam out to convert or kill everyone else, that is, be continually at war.(4) Oil wealth.(5) Modern communications and transportation.(6) Political correctness that wants to treat everyone with high sensitivity, grant full benefit of doubt, and delay as long as possible any defensive reaction.Simple: Here in the US, we have to defend ourselves. Inside our borders, we have to defend ourselves with great care. Outside our borders, we have to accept that parts of Islam are as dangerous to us and others as was Nazi Germany or World Communism.How dangerous? The radical Muslims are just as dangerous to us as they can find ways, including with oil wealth, to be, and that’s plenty dangerous. The center of NYC could be leveled. No joke.End game? As far as the US is concerned, outside the US, communities and countries that want to be Islamic are welcome to do whatever they want — be a Medieval culture, mutilate their girls, murder gays, freely rape women not guarded by men in their families, chop off body parts, pluck out eyes and skin people alive, drown people in cages, execute with crucifixion, etc. — as long as they present no threat to the US, US allies, or important US interests. Some “peaceful religion”.US energy? That the US be self-sufficient in energy is important for US national security, foreign policy, and economic strength and stability. So, the US should do all it can with all sources of domestic energy supplies.Guys, if we don’t do a lot more, the attacks stand to get a lot worse. We need to defend ourselves, and for that we need to do a lot more.Fred, what you did is, yes, a velvet glove, but also needs to be over an iron fist, and not just strong but smart. Those people are out to kill us, all of us. They are not joking. They will kill us as effectively as they can. They have oil from Iraq and Syria and now also from Libya. If they can buy a nuke and explode it in NYC, they will, ASAP.But, I sense that nearly no one in the US or Europe agrees with me. Maybe eventually many others will agree. In the meanwhile, I can’t do it alone. Besides I’m not in politics. So, I’ve had my say. Back to my startup.

  25. Mike Geer (MG)

    Done. Thanks for highlighting this, Fred. It is always useful to have a positive way to focus our energy when faced with such a negative event.

  26. Salt Shaker

    Only a matter of time before some bright soul says if everyone in the club was armed the results would have been less tragic. Yeah right, we all need to be packing AR-15’s. When is enough enough? Colorado, Newtown, Orlando. At the very least, we need to reinstate an assault weapons ban at the federal level. Without it, we’re just enablers.

    1. bsoist

      Reports are that close to 350 people were in the club. We can’t really know for sure, but I assume more guns might have made things much worse.

      1. Salt Shaker

        That was my point. Sarcasm.

        1. bsoist

          Yeah. I was agreeing with you. I didn’t laugh at your sarcasm, but I got it.

    2. JLM

      .Yeah, because there’s nothing — NOTHING — that controls criminals like an existing or new law. I know there are some who are tempted to suggest criminals are criminals by the very virtue of ignoring or breaking laws, but think how great it makes us feel to enact yet another law?We had a ten year assault weapon ban and it worked so well, it wasn’t renewed.This situation has nothing to do with an assault weapons ban and everything to do with evil v good.One even might suggest law enforcement needs to take its duties more seriously. This POS was in FBI custody not once but twice. We had him and we let him go.Maybe we get a little more serious about protecting our citizens.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

      1. Salt Shaker

        JLM, why do everyday citizens need access to assault weapons? Oh yeah, almost forgot, 2nd Amendment. Honestly, what practical logic applies here?

        1. JLM

          .Not to quibble but the possession of weapons of any type by “everyday citizens” is not really the issue, is it?It appears to be the possession of any guns by NUTS which is the issue, no?That is why the failure to develop a nationwide list of “unfit” persons (as mandated by the prior AWB law) was so tragic.Who opposed it? The ACLU, the liberal intelligentsia, and the Democrat illuminati.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

          1. bsoist

            It appears to be the possession of any guns by NUTS which is the issue, no?I hear you, but I think the issue is this culture we’ve created where we can’t debate things at all.I think the debate over gun ownership is, without question, the most difficult of political questions because both sides have valid positions. But I have found that every debate I have with someone who is pro-gun devolves into “you can’t tell me what to do.I understand how scared people are the government wants to take their guns, but shouldn’t we be able to have reasoned debates about regulation, etc?

          2. JLM

            .A rational debate requires some common understanding of the facts defining the problem to be solved.When our crying, emoting President recently described the process by which a citizen legally purchases a weapon on the Internet, he was totally, completely wrong.He also ascribed the utilization of the national crime database to ATF when, in fact, it is the FBI.These kind of fundamental gaps in knowledge highlight the difficulty.Gun regulation? SiGun control? NoJLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

          3. bsoist

            I’m with you.

          4. LE

            But I have found that every debate I have with someone who is pro-gun devolves into “you can’t tell me what to do.This is the phenomena that I talked about in another comment last week or so with respect to Trump. The more you tell people how bad he is the more then end up digging in their heals and not listening to reason or logic.

      2. LE

        This POS was in FBI custody not once but twice.It’s a judgement call. We’d have to know how many similar individuals had the same rap sheet or info known about them.Also what is your suggestion that the FBI do exactly with a person like this? Put a 24×7 tail on him? Or lock him up? For what?In hindsight it’s easy to say what should have happened.

        1. JLM

          .Law enforcement possess enormous investigative and surveillance capabilities.They can listen into and intercept anything.So, yes, they should have done something.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

          1. LE

            Funny story with surveillance. A tenant of mine claims to have deposited the rent in my mailbox on the 6th of the month (1 day late). I said earlier today “what time of day did you do that I will check the security cameras…” (there are two on the office front door never can be to careful). Oops. Haven’t heard back yet to that text. Don’t think they thought of that one. I wasn’t trying to trap them (otherwise I wouldn’t have told them the punch line). I was just on a fact finding mission because on the off chance I made the mistake (chance of that like peace in the middle east) I would beat myself up over it.

  27. Aruni S. Gunasegaram

    So horrible. I have tried to comment a few times on your blog recently, but it seems like my comments don’t come through. I would share a link to a great article on Super Beliefs/Doubt written by Mark Manson to add to this discussion, but think that it might get blocked for some reason. I tried to link to a post to an article on a great founder/CEO on your request for examples of great CEO traits post a few weeks ago, but after a few times of trying and not seeing it, I gave up. Please google the article on Doubt/Super Beliefs as a reason why I think things like this happen. Peace, Love, and Joy to all of us!

  28. Mario

    Radical Islamic Terror: say the words!

  29. JLM

    .Cancer. Cancer is bad. Cancer is a motherfucker because it kills us. But, it depends on what kind of cancer one contracts and at what stage of development it is caught and where it takes root. We fight back vigorously against cancer, as well we should.Terrorism is a cancer. Terrorism is bad. Terrorism is a motherfucker because it kills us. In Orlando, it killed 50 and wounded 53. That is a lot of dead and wounded Americans. Too many for me to ignore.Like cancer, it depends on what kind of terrorism, where it is, and its virulence.It is also important where it is when it is confronted.In military strategy, one spends a lot of time discussing the FEBA — the forward edge of the battle area — the line at which the friendlies stumble into the enemy. Battles are won and lost by picking the right terrain upon which to draw the FEBA.The FEBA for terrorism used to be in the Middle East, exclusively. Now, it is in San Bernandino and Orlando and Boston. The FEBA is in our country, in our backyards, in our cities.The right place for the FEBA is not in a club in Orlando.George Orwell’s famous quote: “People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.”It used to be easy to sic our “rough men” upon our enemies. But, today, it is not.It starts with leadership. As long as we have leadership which is unable, unwilling, or incapable of calling the nature of the threat exactly what it is, then we will have more Orlandos and San Bernadinos and Boston Marathons.The FEBA will be coming to a zip code near you.It has nothing to do with Islam, gun control, gay rights, clashes of cultures. It is the most basic confrontation between good and evil.We will either kill them before they kill us or we will learn to live with such atrocities.It is Occam’s Razor and the solution is in our hands.Do not mourn for the dead, protect the living and then there will be less mourning in the future. We cannot change the past but we can change the future.Put the fucking FEBA where it belongs.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

    1. LE

      The good news is that these guys are happy and capable of killing typically less than 50 people. If they wanted to they could in theory cause a great deal more carnage without even using weapons and without any harm coming to themselves as well.

  30. ShanaC

    Someone here got me to read about major mass shootings in the US.A lot are connected to loose gun lawsA lot are also connected to job losses and feelings of impotence. We might need to shore up the economy as much as strengthen gun control to bring those numbers down. There is no need to turn to violence if you don’t feel impotent in other areas of you life

  31. Salt Shaker

    DT wants to ban Muslims entering the country and conveniently conflates the Orlando killer, a U.S. citizen born and raised here, with his proposed immigration policy. Not long before he recommends we deport all 3.3M Muslims currently in the U.S. Not sure where DT’s isolationism policy ends, but rest assured it won’t include immigrants from Slovenia or poor Melania will be at risk. Btw, have you noticed she never looks particularly happy? My hunch is she too wants an end to the madness.P.S. All in favor of vetting, but it’s impossible to fully vet risk, beliefs and ideology among millions. There’s no singular solution here, but banning the purchase of assault weapons needs to be a part of it, even if it leads to preventing only one more Newtown, Colorado or Orlando.

    1. LE

      Agree but it’s fine that he makes political hay because like wd-40 the carrier wears off and the active ingredient remains. That said his point about the vigilance of friends and family stands it’s quite possible that (from what I heard) his Taliban loving dad might have known the potential for his son to do the crime.

  32. JaredMermey

    This one hurt more for some reason. I don’t know why. I wish I did. Might make it easier to direct all the emotions towards something positive.

  33. Javier Villanueva

    The horror of this crime is so big that I find it hard to explain it …

  34. howardlindzon

    great idea. done

  35. Pete Griffiths

    Sometimes it’s hate.Sometimes it’s ideology.andSometimes it’s mental illness.

  36. mrwild

    This is another example of the bizarre program of our elites to transition us from a high-trust to low-trust society. Continuously importing antagonistic cultures all but guarantees the need for more surveillance, conflict resolvers, goofy sensitivity training, and the whole diversity industry. Getting the black-white divide to heal has been an enormous task as it is. Importing more divides only makes sense to policy makers who relish social conflicts and imagine that people are infinitely malleable (with social engineering, of course).

  37. Mariah Lichtenstern

    “A former police academy classmate of Mateen’s told The Palm Beach Post on Monday he thought Mateen was gay and that Mateen once asked him out romantically.The classmate, who did not use his name, said he, Mateen, and other classmates would sometimes go to gay bars after classes at the Indian River Community College police academy.He told The Post he thought Mateen was gay, but not publicly. He added that Mateen was ‘awkward’ and other members of their friend group felt sorry for him.’He just wanted to fit in and no one liked him,’ he told The Post. ‘He was always socially awkward.'”http://www.businessinsider….

  38. johnmccarthy

    My Congressman, Jim Himes says it best…..”I will no longer stand here absorbing the faux concern, contrived gravity and tepid smugness of a House complicit in the weekly bloodshed. Sooner or later, the country will hold us accountable for our inaction. But as you bow your head think of what you will say to your God when you are asked what you did to slow the slaughter of the innocents. Silence.”…

  39. LE

    I can’t understand concealed carry or open carryWell I know some people who are jewelers who regularly carry around diamonds and large quantities of cash (that’s legal you know) who are required to carry a gun.Also in the case of people who have been threatened assuming there is a proper vetting process (and I don’t know if and what that is) then it seems reasonable to allow a gun to be carried for protection.The problem is when the government is lazy (like with handicapped parking spots) and just issues permits with the easily gamed equivalent of a doctors note. Really the same reason for plenty of gun violence, doctors writing prescriptions for pain in cases where it’s not necessary. [1][1] Apparently that stemmed in part from the medical community and perhaps even government making pain another vital sign that is important to monitor. [2][2] The fifth beetle:

  40. LE

    In Philly there was this terrible case of a kid getting beat by other kids in a middle class neighborhood with a baseball bat:…At the time it wasn’t as big of a deal as you would think it would be. Nothing like would have happened if it were a gun that did the killing. People thought of it as just kids fighting and things getting out of control.

  41. sigmaalgebra

    Stopping guns won’t make the stupid morons smart.The US has some serious social problems. Maybe we should make progress on those problems. One of the causes appears to be bringing people into the US, by force or voluntarily, who really don’t have the background to fit in and, thus, become an exploited underclass with a lot of social problems, including criminal violence.So, seeing this cause of social problems, what have we done in the past 8, 10, 15 years? Sure: Refused to enforce our immigration laws to create more such people and, no doubt, social problems. Then, now apparently we are letting in thousands of young men, with educations 500 years out of date, from areas where ISIS is strong. Gee, what could go wrong with that?Stopping law abiding US citizens from having shotguns and rifles is a very indirect and really highly ineffective solution for the social problems that generate the violence. We will start to be really concerned when we decide we don’t want an identifiable, laboring underclass to be exploited.Besides, the usually considered way to ban guns needs 2/3rds of the House, 2/3rds of the Senate, and 3/4ths of the states. Okay, maybe can sign up NYC and SF, and that might be about it. Elsewhere, it’s a spit to windward.So, banning guns looks like some political sucker bait — to borrow from McCain, “fire up the crazies”, help the NYT sell some newspapers, and otherwise accomplish nothing.

  42. DJL

    But? Go ahead and launch the hate. It is much easier than learning the facts about something.

  43. DJL

    Why to so many “apparently” intelligent people not understand what Radical Islam is? It is definitely a mystery.

  44. DJL

    There’s that damned Constitution getting in the way again.

  45. Salt Shaker

    How do you reconcile 2nd amendment w/ your Christian faith? Curious.

  46. sigmaalgebra

    My guess at the politics is that gun control can be popular in NYC and SF and really unpopular in the flyover states and nearly all of the South.Besides, even if the Second Amendment the founding fathers only had muskets in mind, I still like the idea that the citizens can have guns, e.g., without their own machine shop or metal 3-D printing.Yes, apparently the Orlando wacko was born in the US. But apparently he was also a Muslim and part of ISIS. We do have some home grown wacko criminals. Muslims who regard themselves as part of ISIS are an especially dangerous case. So, part of a solution might be to monitor Muslims and look for the radicals. Since he was a US citizen, we are quite limited in what we can do until, say, we have evidence that he’s part of ISIS.Update: Just sawhttp://www.businessinsider….on the Orlando wacko. The article mentioned a lot of his motivations but, IIRC, didn’t even mention gays. Instead, this wacko was deep into at least sympathy with ISIS, Al Qaeda, and radical Islam more generally.

  47. Cam MacRae

    There are hundreds of different denominations that call themselves “Christian”. Each one is different. And churches have (and will continue to be) abused by various individuals and governments.There are hundreds of different denominations that call themselves “Islamic”. Each one is different. And mosques and madrasas have (and will continue to be) abused by various individuals and governments.Christians do not promote violence and hatred. They promote love. Muslims do not promote violence and hatred. They promote love.If it were not for Christianity, you would not be writing in this blog. It was an integral part of the foundation of this country – Like it or not. If it were not for Islam, you would not be writing in this blog. It was an integral part of the foundation of this country – Like it or not.Why do you hate Christianity so much?Why do you hate Islam so much?Just because you hate something does not make it bad.Dammit!

  48. bsoist

    The root cause is not blind adherence to any ideology,That might be why he wrote dogma and not ideology.Two different @liad:disqus

  49. DJL

    “Islam was a fundamental part of this nations founding?” Hmm. I lost you there. I don’t recall any of the founding Father’s quoting the Koran.”Islam promotes love” – tell that to the Christians and gays that are put in jail or killed in Saudi Arabia or Iran. Maybe you haven’t noticed, but Sharia law does not recognize women as equal to men. Gays are to be “re-educated” or arrested or killed. Not sure how that adds up either.But it was a brilliant piece of deduction, once you get over the facts.BTW – I don’t hate Islam. But I believe that ignoring radical Islam as a real threat is dangerous and ignorant. Equating Christianity and Islam is also not based on facts, but prejudice. But apparently according to the readers of this blog, I am simply an ignorant bigot. That’s what happens when Liberals are confronted with the facts.

  50. bsoist

    Brilliantly done!

  51. DJL

    No. Islam is a funnel for radical, hateful thought, speech and action. You think the attacks in France, Tel Aviv, Fort Hood and California were all just random crazies? The intelligence community is aware of this. We should be too.

  52. James Ferguson @kWIQly

    Wherever you stand – that was a denial – Q.E.D.( or for the lowercase classicists q.e.d. ๐Ÿ™‚

  53. bsoist

    I wasn’t disagreeing with your comment as much as pointing out what I think is an important distinction.I thought you had misquoted him. Now that you point out that I misquoted him and I compare your comments, it’s more clear to me why you left the word out.BUT I still think the distinction is important ( not so much as a correction of your comment, if that make sense ).The original comment reads dogmatic ideology, which is an ideology based on dogma – different than an ideology which is not based on dogma.So I still agree with the original comment – dogma is the danger here. When people insist the world works a certain way because of something they read in a book, the potential for damage is great.I also agree with the sentiment in your comment (tough I’m not sure I follow every word of it).

  54. DJL

    They are two different things. I believe in God. I also believe that the US is better off with private gun ownership. (I am in Texas, after all.) In fact, most police officers agree. (I have asked them.)There is no conflict. Believing people should be able to own guns is not believing that they should kill people with them. There were no guns when the Old (or new) Testament was written. But “Thou shalt not kill” still made the top 10.

  55. Sam

    Respectfully, you’re not helping.”corrupt””fear-mongering””treasury wasters”Ever so imperceptibly, you’re doing your part to foster the environment I’m talking about.

  56. JLM

    .You betray a bit of selective memory, at best, which undermines your argument.There was that invasion of Kuwait by Iraq and the Twin Towers.To suggest there was no provocation seems a little shallow.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

  57. Salt Shaker

    It’s convenient to say they’re mutually exclusive. They’re not. Believing in “thou shall not kill” while simultaneously believing one should have the means to easily do so are somewhat at odds. The world, and our place in it, is far more nuanced than when the Testament and Constitution were written. Silos aren’t healthy.

  58. Donna Brewington White

    The “top 10” — that’s good.

  59. Cam MacRae

    “Islam was a fundamental part of this nations founding?” Hmm. I lost you there. Of course you did.tell that to the Christians and gays that are put in jail or killed in Saudi Arabia or Iran.Sure, buddy. I’ll drop in after I’ve called on Sabra, Srebrenica, and Boali.But it was a brilliant piece of deduction, once you get over the facts.I’m afraid you’ve missed the point entirely, but as I’m feeling neighbourly I’ll help you out: Your shrill bleating consists primarily of empty statements.That’s what happens when Liberals are confronted with the facts.There are fewer liberals here than you suspect. Don’t mistake cordiality for ineptitude; you’ve been comprehensively and repeatedly bested by an entire host of characters with no more in common than they comment on this blog.

  60. ShanaC

    “Islam promotes love” – tell that to the Christians and gays that are put in jail or killed in Saudi Arabia or Iran. Maybe you haven’t noticed, but Sharia law does not recognize women as equal to men. Gays are to be “re-educated” or arrested or killed. Not sure how that adds up either.Nor does Catholic Cannon Law, Orthodox Church Cannon Law, Orthodox Jewish Interpretations of Halacha, Mormon Cannon Law, and informal cannon in evagelical churchesHinduism is all over the place and Buddhism is ever evolving, and they have a very different sense of cannon law and how they fit into secular life.Meanwhile I also can take a hike to China and have women recite the Hadith. So? Religion has a lot of local culture imbuded into it

  61. SubstrateUndertow

    Islamnow that is a very broad brush you paint with, the devil is in the details !The backwash of arcane vestigial religious extremism may still plague Islam more than than its contemporary Christian equivalence but most of that difference arises from a world history of uneven economic/educational progress not from the inherent evils of Islam.We are all stuck in a unified global historical-life-boat at this point so factional blame-gaming over history’s unevenness serves no one interests.

  62. ShanaC

    also, random pair of questions1) Have you been to israel2) Have you met a Kahanist

  63. DJL

    “arcane vestigial religious extremism” – who could argue with that?

  64. bsoist

    The backwash of arcane vestigial religious extremism may still plague Islam more than than its contemporary Christian equivalencefor now

  65. DJL

    Sure. And don’t mistake snarky, barely veiled sarcasm for “cordiality”. Give me a break “neighbor”.But you helped prove my point. You didn’t refute one of my comments with facts, but instead attacked the messenger. Brilliant. I certainly have been intellectually outgunned here.

  66. bsoist

    I was just thinking of making the same point. In my experience, this place is not a bunch of liberals. ๐Ÿ™‚

  67. Cam MacRae

    I thought I made little pretence of cordiality, and rather was speaking warmly of our friends. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

  68. ShanaC

    i also really want to know when liberal became a bad word

  69. ShanaC

    that thought saddens me

  70. bsoist

    the followers of the ideology of freedom have been seduced by the ideology of victory at all costs.Agreed. Enjoyed discussing it with you, even if I spent some time straying from the point. ๐Ÿ™‚

  71. DJL

    BS? You might want to start reading the news. The guy was associated with Moner Abu Salha, an American suicide bomber. There are reports that Mateen made a call to 911 this morning in which hestated his allegiance to the leader of the Islamic State. If you want to blame this on guns instead of Islam, no logic will help.I am not blaming all Muslims, nor have I ever in any of my comments. So please try to read them before flaming.

  72. Mario

    The words are an acknowledgement that Islam is incompatible with the west, that the two cultures can never mix together in multicultural union based on equality. One or the other culture must dominate, else Balkan-style segregation probably at the point of a gun. Bringing more muslims, especially low-skilled/unemployable into the west is a tragic mistake for all parties.

  73. Cam MacRae

    When the Americans forgot its meaning? ๐Ÿ˜‰

  74. Lawrence Brass

    There are many misconceptions about what being a liberal is. One characteristic of a true liberal should be to show respect for others’ beliefs including religion, knowing and believing that the other has the right and is free to choose. I think that the archetypical western liberal share a lot of christian values, maybe separated from christian spirituality because the true liberal’s spiritual travel is unbound and free from dogma. The concept of liberals living in a moral and spiritual vacuum is completely wrong. The deep belief in everyone’s right to choose leads to caring for others and respecting them as individuals. Choosing a religion as a moral and spiritual framework should not change that.For those who love, liberal is not a bad word.

  75. DJL

    Sorry Paul, but the facts do not support this. He was clearly being pushed over the edge for many years with help from various shady Muslim characters. Why is this so hard for you to accept? I am curious.

  76. Mario

    “I was sitting in Paris not so long ago with a Moroccan Muslim, his Muslim Berber wife, a Tunisian Muslim friend, a French-Algerian Muslim (born in Paris) and two “Europeans”, drinking wine, discussing everything from surfing on the Atlantic cost of Morocco to Tunisian politics, whether Italy or France produce the best red wines (probabilmente tu diresti l’Italia)…”This is parody, right?My wife is muslim. We live in Silicon Valley. Her mid-east homeland was / is a hellhole. Before escaping, she experienced prison, corruption, physical abuse, credible death threats. I’m certain: wine-sipping dandies like you don’t want to live in the caliphate, and will regret if we allow a critical mass of 3rd world islam into the West.