Losing In Double Overtime
Longtime readers know that I am a Knicks fan. Or as the Signal group I have with a couple of my kids is called, a “Frustrated Knicks Fan.”
Last night we lost at home in double overtime to the Bulls. That is the third time this season we have lost to the Bulls. Twenty percent of the Bulls wins this year have been against the Knicks.
Last night’s loss was a microcosm of the season and this team for me.
We played hard, we made a couple big buckets to take the game to OT and double OT.
But in the end, a boneheaded play by the player who was keeping us in the game lost it for us.
Fandom is such an interesting emotion.
It is self-torture and yet we enjoy it.
Michael Porter Jr would sure look nice with KP, THJ, and Frankie.
Are you suggesting we need to trust the process?
fredwilson:the Knicks Organization have no process. (Years of hiring people with no experience/on the Job training from former HOF players or Coaches) The only basketball man hired cleaned up the mess from Isiah Thomas (Walsh) was shown the door after he cleaned it up. The Owner wants to be a blues musician.You need to consider submitting a bid with an ownership group that can allow Basketball people to run the organization. Not on the job training from a great coach or great HOF player. That recipes continues to prove ineffective at the least and disaster at the norm.James Dolan would take your call fredwilson.A serious endeavor you need to communicate with several of your LP who are Billionaires as yourself. Or you can just do it yourself which we doubt is your style. (Going it alone)Captain Obvious!#UNEQUIVOCALLYUNAPOLOGETICALLYINDEPENDENT
Sam Hinkie did everything right except draft Porzingis. Quite the irony.
TCU lost in double OT last night – feel you!
Must have been in the water
Not better in Brooklyn with the Nets. But I’m still hopeful as always but no idea why.
They played well against the Raptors the other night. Aren’t they doing better than last year?
Yes, no question. Some bad injuries too. Have good GM and coach now.
Dinwiddie, LaVert, and Crabbe were all great.
Knicks biggest issue is that their first Superstar is a 5.They are absolutely improving, but you need a superstar who operates off the bounce to really rock (Giannis, Kyrie, LeBron, Russ, KD, Steph, Beard, CP3, etc.)Having seen him last night, I would target the Portland Trailblzers Damian Lillard. In the 4th quarter the Rockets put 3 different types of player on him (PG – CP3; tweener bull – PJ Tucker; stretch 3/4 – Ariza): he ate them all alive. Could not be stopped.As a plus, he’s part of the Tough As Nails Oakland PG heritage (Gary Payton, Lester Connor, Brian Shaw…..I don’t really count Jason Kidd, but…..him too).Nukic – the Blazers 5 – is a classic super athlete / bad player. He bounces all over the court, quick & agile. Then you get him the ball on the block and he keeps shooting leaner bricks over smaller defenders (What? Just turn and shoot it! The guy on you is 6’6″! Unless, of course, you can only shoot layups!!!). They never use him in the pick and roll, which should be the first thing you do with a guy that athletic.Lillard and the Unicorn would be a major headache around the league.
Having grown up 12 blocks from Wrigley Field, I can appreciate the fandom dynamic. Sports seasons allow us to enjoy the highs and low of the circle of life each year. Optimism, hope, reality, the dog days, challenge, wins and losses. Hang in there, baseball season is not far away. I’ll listen to Eddie Vedder’s “Someday we’ll go all the way” anthem on my walk to work today!
Hang in there, baseball season is not far away. 32 days 🙂
Cubs have been active. Can’t wait
I would have thought your support of the Mets and Jets trained you to endure this kind of thing. Barely even bothers me now. :)Sometimes I do wonder why we insist on sharing the misery with our children.
I continue to make it clear to my kids that they can root for any team they want…doesn’t have to be the ones I like (but regardless of who they are rooting for, we’re *watching* my team) :-)Regardless of that, so far, they seem to choose to share my pain and the older they get the bigger ‘fan’ they seem to become of ‘our’ teams…I guess partially because they’ve now invested a bunch of their childhood in it and, I like to think, because they’ve now spent a good chunk of time bonding/venting with dad about it too…even if they suffer a lifetime of horrible teams, they’ll always think back on ‘our time’ as they do (and hopefully smile).I love sports for many reasons, but none bigger than that single thing.
Sounds familiar – except when the Jets and Skins play at the same time, we watch the Skins. Terri is the biggest sports fan at our house anyway.Family is really the only reason I care about sports at all anymore. We have all started to sour a bit on football, but there is so much history there – watching all four of our teams on Sundays, going to FedEx for games, watching the bowl games on my birthday, etc. We still watch a little bit as part of the tradition when we’re all together.This year, Billy was in Chicago on my birthday. Becky and I watched about half of the Rose Bowl until she said “You wanna play some Minecraft” and I said, “Oh yeah!”We lived in the Jacksonville area during the Jaguars inaugural year. Billy was very young, so we encouraged him to root for them. We were giving him the opportunity to tell his grandchildren he was a lifelong fan. He still roots for them, but since he moved to the city he really pulls for his dad’s Jets.The only team that the whole family has always agreed on was the Mets. It really is the only sport we deeply care about too, so that makes it fun.
My wife and I made an agreement when we first starting dating, she would root for the Falcons if I rooted for the Mets.Since both teams have long been bottom-feeding messes, with the random sliver of hope here and there, we were both well within our comfort zone and it worked out great (as has the relationship — so far) 😉
Guard play is so critical now.Being a fan is odd – no control but a lot of investment.Was at Rockets game last night. Quality of player was very high but quality of play was not.
“I don’t get fans of [NBA/NFL], it’s a bunch of guys, playing a game, that would hate you if they knew you. The whole thing is rediculous.”-Bill Maher
That is because Bill is the perfect ‘non team narcissist’. Sports guy’s hated him because he is so self centred. Its so common in media, Hollywood. Every star is about their feelings or, as Oprah says ‘their truth’.Team sports has lots of narcissists, but they need to mold their behaviour to the teams needs and their role on the team.Not so much in Hollywood and Bill is a great example: he runs a small company, makes outlandish income, has never married nor procreated.His life could barely be more about him.
True, but he beds playboy playmates at age 60 which might be his definition of bliss. I’m a huge sports fan but college only
His extraction : contribution ratio is very, very one sided.Not a healthy model for society, yet he is considered extremely successful by many.
couldn’t care less about professional sports. what does interest me though is the psychology behind supporting a team and the self-identification tied in with it.my brother is an ardent soccer fan. would follow his team across Europe. paying an extortionate amount of money for the privilege of giving them his support. their loss was his loss. he’d be upset for days over a bad beat, wrong referee call, playing getting injured, leaving the team etc etc. I just couldn’t get it. To live vicariously through others, especially when it involved a lot of heartache and their actions are completely outside your control doesn’t make any sense to me. hard to think of a more one-sided relationship that fan–>sport-teamSo here’s my question:”We played hard, we made a couple big buckets” – who is the we. Because the fans didn’t play hard nor make any buckets.
I’m an ardent fan of a few teams, but otherwise don’t care much for the idea of sports.The “we” psychology is very interesting, though. I didn’t even bother to watch the NCAA championship game Monday, but when Terri told me Alabama won, I was actually almost sick to my stomach. She went on to tell me that our brother-in-law was on Facebook all pumped about it, sticking it to people, etc, and then she said”like he had anything to do to with it!”:) feels good, I guess, that two SEC were involved, but I am not pulling for either one of those two
We’re tribal creatures, we all want to be a part of something. But the worst fans are, by far, NFL fans. Because if they went to college they’d be College FB fans. So NFL fans are basically a bunch of fat dumb drunk middle-aged white guys that play co-ed softball and critique real athletes.
Why does anyone care about anything really?Sports is just another form of an emotional outlet/release. A way to have a sense of belonging. And a modern form of competition (without the life or death consequences).The more you play, watch, invest it the more emotional/dedicated you tend to become with it (and it’s got the network effect baked in).If/when you are able to step back and look objectively at it, it’s silly and meaningless for sure…but then much could be said about *all* of life really.At the same time, competition and games of any type (not just sports) can teach you a lot about and prepare you well for life. There is generally critical thinking, dealing with pressure, physical and mental challenges, teamwork, dealing with constraints and outside forces…just about everything a “job” requires, sports can help prepare you for (well except for the *actual* work bit of course).Watching vs. playing really just hones different parts of those skills…but often produces many of the same (if not more) emotions (specifically because it *is* out of your control).
Why does anyone care about anything really?My ‘I don’t get it’ moment with sports came as a child when I didn’t understand why someone would care about a team of players who didn’t even come from your own city. At least with high school teams they all attend the high school so you can see the attraction of it somewhat.
They may not have come from your city, but they represent it now…often the immigrants, having experienced what it’s like to live somewhere else, are the ones who truly appreciate/love the place they settle into.But for me – it’s never been about a physical location (I have never lived in Atlanta but am a HUGE Atlanta Falcons fan)…I picked the team because I liked their history and how they played, looked, and acted at the time I was “in the market” for a team to root for. (I did not inherit my love of the Falcons — or any sports team actually — I consciously chose it.)
often the immigrants, having experienced what it’s like to live somewhere else, are the ones who truly appreciate/love the place they settle intoThe cold tired and hungry are not sitting in the bleachers in Philly.So while this sounds really romantic it definitely does not appear to relate to Philly sports fans from what I know about them.As always, support can easily be found for the stereotype in this case a Rolling Stone article:https://www.rollingstone.co…Philly sports fans have a reputation. They’re loud. They’re drunk. They’re occasionally violent. It’s possible that a Philly sports fan might not even realize that a teen running out on the field mid-game until he’s tasered into submission by a security guard is unusual behavior until one leaves their hometown. However, if there’s one thing that people from at least 100 miles outside the greater Philadelphia metropolitan area love doing, it’s telling Philly sports fans that they are collectively perceived as possessing the decorum of a pack of rabid wolverines
I’ve been to a handful of Philly games – def. fun and the crowd is def. passionate and into it. In my experience, they like to use it to vent and gripe…sometimes to fight (regardless of winning or losing)…but they def. have a “with us or against us” mentality (and I don’t recommend going there and being “against”).That being said, not all their fans are like that…many are actually really great, knowledgable, fans (a few that are even regulars here).Being from PA orig. myself (though about as far away from Philly as you can get without leaving the state)…I’ll take a debate with a Philly sports fan over a Pittsburgh sports fan any and every day (Pitts. fans are *notoriously* irrational and obnoxious fans, IMHO). 😀
Got it. So it could be said that the entire state sucks but actually not as much as NJ. At least in PA (where I grew up and went to school) the property and income tax is lower. And of course there is that opera out on the turnpike in NJ which I have never heard in PA.
I love PA (and many of the people within it).Before I lived in NJ, I would have rated it the 54th best state in the U.S. (and, yes, I know there are only 50 officially)…I actually LOVE living here right now, so it’s moved up the list at least a little…but I doubt I’ll stay here forever (partially for some of the reasons you mentioned).p.s. unrelated, but *you* should totally back me on drip…I’m even using one of your ideas as a reward for all my “founding” members (which you still have time to get in on, even at $1/mo). 🙂
Ok well here is what I want if you want my support. (You see everything is a negotiation).I want a tier that offers the following:a) Your name in the code as a function.b) Something to memorialize the code that can be shown to others. Either frame-able (you can send a postcard out for all I care with one of those web services that prints cheaply and mails). I would actually say ‘coffee mug’ with the code but that won’t be personalized with someone’s name obviously. Maybe one of the tiers should be a coffee mug with some code on it. A coffee mug is never clutter.The tier can be priced at $8 a month. $8 is a good number for things. The odd numbers are bad $3 $5 etc. So would rather see $4 and $6 than $3 and $5 for example.Variations of the above are fine as well but the ‘your name is lights’ really is the key to the vanity buy here.https://d.rip/falicon
You can get any color you want. So long as it’s black.You’ll have to take a leap of faith at one of the odd number tiers (cause I’m an ‘odd’ type of guy)…but I will say, get in during the founding period at any level and I’m confident that *you* won’t be disappointed.:-)Side Note: Part of the on-boarding documentation they give you includes some data and suggestions on price-points based on their network history/knowledge…so my choices of $1, $3, and $5 were not totally random or without thought…and the $100 was something I had to throw in because i just *had* to see what would happen with that (you know I’m never going to do something half-hearted and without trying to push the limits at least a little).
“I didn’t understand why someone would care about a team of players who didn’t even come from your own city.”Reminds me of the classic Seinfeld bit:https://youtu.be/we-L7w1K5Zo
id, ego, superego. Freud.
Exactly. Sports is the greatest parallel to work.
Sports is a substitute for war.
To your brother it goes beyond an art form appreciation (what Fred has going on or perhaps the ‘average’ sports fan) almost to an addiction level. By that I mean that the highs and lows for your brother are exaggerated enough to actually change the way his brain works and how he interprets what he sees in a way to create the actual demand to ‘follow his team across Europe’. And also it is art. Even I, the non sports fan, realize that the reason I have no interest is sports is that I never learned to appreciate it by understanding it. And your brother is not going to stop doing this. Because he has so much time into it already and doing so makes him special in his brain. It’s his party that differentiates him from others and the travel allows him to fantasize about that (along with everything else going on that causes him to watch). You know snapchat with those (what are they called?) streaks. Nobody wants to quit an activity they do everyday.to live vicariously through others, especially when it involved a lot of heartache and their actions are completely outside your control No actually the heartache is what keeps him addicted. Intermittent reinforcement. Very powerful in making this all happen. If his team always won there is no way emotionally he would be so tied into following them to every game. Right? If Fred’s team won every game what kind of fun would that be to watch? God knows I used to love when I did online dating (and was good at it for the effort). Because I never knew if the night I logged in and checked the listings if I would find ‘the one’. I finally did of course but it took a long time. I didn’t get frustrated or quit I enjoyed it and the entire process.
You should quit everything you are doing and spend the next 5 years earning minimum wage.Then, associating yourself with a source of public local excellence will make sense to you.
LIAD:Are you American born? Did your parents send you away to boarding school? Were you bullied by the High School jock? These are the questions that come to mind when reading your post. We actually should have your frame of mind because we are analytical and Critical in the same breath.Many of us played sports and like most Americans are conditioned into living and breathing sports. The major sports were founded in the United States. You mentioned your brother following soccer team throughout Europe so we are assuming your European.Short answer many Americans who live vacariously through sports are conditioned and brainwashed from childhood.CAPTAIN OBVIOUS!#UNEQUIVOCALLYUNAPOLOGETICALLYINDEPENDENT
Sorry cg. But this is so narrow and parochial in so many ways. liad was referring to THE GLOBAL SPORT. One we Americans fail miserably at because of our focus on the individual over the system.Many (most?) humans need belief structures to fill the empty moments of their lives and spaces in their minds (and hearts?). Sports does a nice job of that. No cultural differences there.
Michael Elling:We agree with you more than you agree with yourself.The real Futbol is the most popular sport on the planet. The United States only has 350M. The world that embraces Futbol (More fanatical than all American sports combined, they actually kill people at matches, sprout racist epithets, etc., did we mention they kill humans at matches, 30 for 30 best documentary on it)We are much too analytical and critical to even partake in things beyond our control. We have been brainwashed from childhood. (NY Knicks, Giants, Yankees and Rangers) It is actually sickening to realize the brainwashing.Captain Obvious!#UNEQUIVOCALLYUNAPOLOGETICALLYINDEPENDENT
I was a referee in the semi-pro leagues in the mid 1980s in the tri-state region. A week before a match at the Maspeth Bowl in Queens (all dirt) a team of Croatians played a team of Serbians. One player bit the ear off another player. That was 4 years before the fall of The Wall and foreshadowed the Balkan genocide of the early 1990s.
Michael Elling:The world we live in populates some of the most craziest and brainwashed people. The rabbit hole. The blue pill or the red pill.Captain Obvious!#UNEQUIVOCALLYUNAPOLOGETICALLYINDEPENDENT
A lot of Knicks fans ask “what can go right” instead of “what can go wrong” and that is exactly the right mindset in being a Knicks fan. But you also have to ask “when will it happen and why”?
I don’t know whether to be happy or sad. The Bulls were supposed to be the worst team in the NBA this year. Love Lauri Markkanen. He’s got a great stroke. The Knicks should not have gone this long without a championship. They ran into Jordan in the 90s, but after that where were they?
The older I get, the more I believe ownership is the difference.You need the people at the top making great, consistent, mission-driven decisions before any thing else can fall into place.Only then does talent and effort have a chance to come together into something special.
+100.It varies by sports, but there are typically 3/4 critical roles in an organization that are critical. Owner is always one of them, if you want consistent excellence.NFL – Head Coach, QB*NBA – GM.MLB – GM, Bullpen NHL – GM, Centre, GoalieNCAA – Coach* In the NBA, you need superstars and they can play any position other than Center / Post / 5.I am willing to hear the argument for ‘strength up the middle’ for MLB, but…….Note the absence of MLB Mgr and NHL coach and GM in NFL, where head coach can direct a competent GM to success (Belichick).
Ownership way overrated, unless they meddle, then it’s a problem. Good ownership steps aside. Bob Kraft, even Hal Steinbrenner (not his dad), are good owners. Bad ownership doesn’t. See Dolan.Don’t agree with your logic of non-recognition of NFL GM. The draft is everything! Only way to build a team, especially with hard salary cap (not the case w/ MLB, for example, w/ luxury tax and soft cap). Draft selection is the primary responsibility of GM. Look at Browns, continual shitty picks, and high picks at that. Falls on the GM.
I beg to differ good sir.Ownership always matters. Dolan is hands off, as was Sterling. Neither of them interested in building a winner.Would you want Stan Kroenke as the owner of your NFL team? He is hands off.Pats constantly trade down in the draft. They have a rookie starting @ DT who Belichick saw when he was evaluating someone else…[email protected] Vanderbilt. Knew he could use him in their scheme but did not draft him….signed him as free agent.I will give you that a GM/coach combo can be the same as a superlative Coach: they need to have a philosophy, a system and supply it with talent.Or, that you need one of a GM or Coach to be awesome and that person carries the teams DNA.
Of course, ownership matters, but only to a point. Abso no disagreement there. However, there’s not a big difference between a meddling owner who is in way over his head and makes bad hiring decisions (Dolan) vs. a frugal owner who has no real interest in building a winning team (Jeffrey Loria, Donald Sterling). Both types are losers. As coach and de facto GM, Belichick is an outlier. Does both, and deservedly so. No other pro team I can think of currently has that structure.
If it were any other owner, I could get behind the team just for being a New Yorker. But he makes it so bloody hard to work up a passion for them.
we’ve been blessed up in boston – 18 years in on brady belichick – that’s my entire american football supporting life….
Interesting that America despises Brady. Can’t wait to see him retire. Sick of watching him perform magic week after week. Strangely, he’s not a bad guy….A little smug and obv has lead a charmed life off and on the field. Arguably the very best ever. Belichick, on the other hand, is an ass.
never known an athlete more hated. He’s been a model citizen his whole career here in boston. I get the belichick thing – totally see how he comes off that way.
markslater:The New York Fan hates everything Massachusetts (Boston, Foxboro, etc.) because of the rivalries. Knicks vs Celtics, NY Giants vs Patriots (We actually enjoyed this rivalry, two Superbowl wins that will get Eli in the HOF), Rangers vs Bruins, and last but definitely not least is the Dominance of our beloved Yankees vs Red Sox.So the dislike based upon rivalries in the Tri-State area is justified.But the educated sports fan acknowledges that the Belichick & Brady combo is the best in NFL history. Championships is what counts and they have them.Captain Obvious!#UNEQUIVOCALLYUNAPOLOGETICALLYINDEPENDENT
Best QB ever. Can’t deny that.
Yeah but even that dynasty is showing signs of wear: http://www.espn.com/nfl/sto…
fake news – B & B laughed at it today on the radio..this is journalism at its worst
Haha — Time will tell.
Ainge is a blessing too, as was Theo.Stevens is best coach in the Association. When you get Hayward back, Yikes.
Ya, but Melo is gone now so things will improve dramatically in a short time. I had to watch him do nothing but shoot when he was in Denver (although at least he made it to the playoffs a few times). I was SO happy when they got rid of him…
You have to applaud the moves made by “new” mgt, Scott Perry and Steve Mills. Everything they’ve done w/ this team seems to be working. Dolan, Isiah and Phil responsible for decades of bad trades, contracts and “The Triangle,” a style of play forced on the team seemingly to perpetuate one’s legacy. Former GM Donnie Walsh would have righted this team a while ago until Dolan meddled, forced the Melo trade and Donnie said “I’m out of here.” (Note: Remember that Phil drafted both KP and Frank amongst heavy criticism. Short-term both picks look really good, but you do have to wonder if KP can hold up long term physically to the rigors of the game.)
It comes down to who wants it more – like the National Championship Game Monday night. By half-time that game was Georgia’s to lose and because Alabama wanted it more they came back in overtime to win. They overcame adversity, kept their eyes on the prize and demonstrated heart.And I like a decisive victory as much as the next guy. However, it often seems the margin of victory is narrow (wonder what the empirical data says?). A little like the valuation of two or three breakout investments covering the all the others 😉
Sometimes an otherwise lackluster team just has you figured out. My alma mater Michigan State has been demolishing other teams this year, winning by 30 points or more.Last night at home against Rutgers they were pushed to the limit, forcing an overtime and almost pulling off the upset. Rutgers hasn’t beaten a ranked team in something like ten years, but last night they were almost giant killers.
That is why they play the games.FOMO originated in pro sports.
CONTRIBUTORS:A SPECIAL LIST FOR NY KNICK SUPPORTERS:KNICK GREATS (In order without any dispute)1. Patrick Ewing2. Walt Clyde Frazier (Championships)3. Willis Reed (Championships)4. Earl The Pearl Monroe (Championship)5. Dave DeBusschere (Championship)6. Bill Dollar Bradley (Championship), (Rhodes Scholar) (US Senator)7. Benard King8. Carmelo Anthony9. Mark Jackson10. Allan Houston11. Charles Oakley12. John Starks13. Latrell Sprewell (Carried The Knicks on his back to 1999 Finals, Patrick Ewing on bench)14. Micheal Ray Richardson15. Anthony Mason16. Bill Cartwright17. Dick McGuire (Point Guard, never seen him play only read about him, Assistant Coach on Championship team, No. 7, Reason researched him is the reason Carmelo Anthony said he wears number 7)18. Cassie Russell19. JR Smith (Can we even admit this)20. Ray Williams21. David Lee22. Stephon Starbury MarburyCaptain Obvious!#UNEQUIVOCALLYUNAPOLOGETICALLYINDEPENDENT
Bernard King should be #4.
Great game, although Lauri Markannen is too good for the Knicks! I was high on him when he was drafted. Ya’ll need Hardaway back.
Lauri Markkanen FTW!
It’s odd. They are a much more fun team to watch and root for, but record-wise, they are almost identical to last year’s squad.
The Knicks are a fun team to watch. But they need more support for the zinger who himself can some times make strange plays. They are still a long way from being a good playoffs team.
I think the post is a Microcosm of how good it can be when Chicago gives NYC a pat on the head and a ‘Nice try buckaroo!’ as the door hits it in the ass on the way out.Cannot wait for the deep dish pizza I order to celebrate this.Starting to tear up a bit — should we talk about the 90s?
The Bulls owned the Knicks in the 90s, but even on the losing side it was a dream. The Garden hasn’t rocked like that since! I was at many great Knicks/Bulls playoff games, but the one where Charles Smith, all 6’11” of him, missed consecutive layups at point blank range for the win still pisses me off.
Jordan really got fired up to play in the Garden.
I think most players get pumped to play at The Garden, even college players. I once had an intern who ran half time promotions during Knicks games. He said he could set it up so I could shoot foul shots for prizes but I chickened out. The fix could have been on 🙂
Sorry, as a Packer fan I would agree that fandom is self-torture but disagree that I enjoyed this past season (or the playoff games over the past several years in which they were eliminated). At this point in my life, fandom is not a conscious choice.