The Parent Child Relationship

It is fathers day today. And I thought I’d write a bit about something that is really bothering me.

I’ve come to terms with a lot of what is going on in the US federal government and our political system. I see it as a natural swinging of the pendulum. Many on the right think we went too far left under Obama. Many on the left think we have gone too far right under Trump. In time, Trump will be history and we will undo all of this nonsense he is putting in place. So is the way of politics and government and every time something happens in DC that bugs me, I think “this too shall pass.”

But, this policy of separating children from their parents at the border really bugs me. The NY Times has a good report up on their homepage right now about how we got to this place.

The Federal Government has been debating this issue of separating children from their parents at the border as a deterrent for more than a decade. From that Times piece:

Yet for George W. Bush and Barack Obama, the idea of crying children torn from their parents’ arms was simply too inhumane — and too politically perilous — to embrace as policy, and Mr. Trump, though he had made an immigration crackdown one of the central issues of his campaign, succumbed to the same reality, publicly dropping the idea after Mr. Kelly’s comments touched off a swift backlash.

I understand the need and the desire to protect our borders and enforce our immigration system, even though I believe we are being way too restrictive in terms of who we let into our country right now. But the law is the law and until we have a new law, we need to enforce the existing law. I get that.

But the children are not the ones making the decisions to violate the laws. And yet they are being punished just as much, possibly even more so, than their parents.

Kelly says “The children will be taken care of — put into foster care or whatever” as if it is no big deal to forcibly separate a child from his or her parents.

It is a big deal, a traumatic event with long-term implications for that child.

Many of us in this community are parents who have cared for and nurtured our children, loved them, supported them, and made them feel safe. We know what that bond is between parent and child, and we know that ripping it apart is an awful horrible thing to do and that we should not be doing it.

On this Fathers Day, let us all say to our government “no more.” We must end this immoral and unjustifiable policy and we must end it now. Ideally today. There is no better day, other than Mothers Day, to do that.


Comments (Archived):

  1. Donna Brewington White

    This situation is heartbreaking.Have any viable alternatives or solutions been proposed?

    1. creative group

      Donna Brewington White:What are you doing up? (4:10am EST.) We are three hour difference, online shopping or five hour sleep cycle is our normal excuse(s).Captain Obvious!#UNEQUIVOCALLYUNAPOLOGETICALLYINDEPENDENT

      1. Donna Brewington White

        It’s even worse than you suspected. I’m on Central time, visiting the Midwest. Stuck between two time zones.

    2. mike rhoden

      Impeachment has been proposed by all reasonable people.

  2. Erin

    <3 <3 <3 Agreed. There must be petitions circulating…?

  3. creative group

    CONTRIBUTORS:We would be disingenuous providing the traditional Happy Father’s Day salutations when we are aware of the the empty origins of it. Fathers Day pales in comparison to Mother’s Day. The gifts and dinners are tokens to the real fathers who fulfill their obligations of caring for those unable to care for themselves.The history of Father’s Dayhttps://www.artofmanliness….That being said. It really fires us true Independents up when the Progressive left wing Democrats say the immigration policy of the current Administration is enough.You mean the following issues couldn’t get the Democrats to have enough of this criminal:1. Lies2. Praising Authoritarian Leaders and Dictators of non Democratic Countries 3. Embracing adversaries verses Allies4. Appointing a corrupt Administration! If you plea guilty to a felony your a criminal period. The lying enablers will certainly fail at their attempt at obfuscation. 5. Environment 6. Consumer Protections7. Attacking the very institutions that make the United States a Democracy to cover the unpatriotic relationship with a chief adversary Russia8. Providing classified secrets to the Russians during first months in office. A true Manturian President. 9. Did we mention lying?And it took separating Children from parents to get you here. GheezCaptain Obvious!#UNEQUIVOCALLYUNAPOLOGETICALLYINDEPENDENT

  4. jason wright

    “a natural swinging of the pendulum” – Newtonian mechanics at play inside your political and economic system. inertia does not promote change leading to progress (however progress might be defined), and so swing is essential. perhaps the pendulum is faulty or in the wrong position, or it might just be possible that the edifice it is trying to dampen is poorly formed and needs reforming.…Kelly, (Nikki) Haley, et al, they all seem to be a very particular type. fascist.

  5. LIAD

    ….and as such, I hereby declare my intention to run for the office of President of these United States.

    1. Donna Brewington White

      I’ll be your running mate. 🙂

  6. aminTorres

    Jeff sessions cited the bible as a justification for this stuff. Smart move. I love the bible, I read it every day growing up, a great book.Here is the passage he cited: Romans 13:1 “Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.”The Irony and this why I love the bible so much. Sessions – I am sure with no agenda, stopped reading there. Had he gone a tiny bit forward he would have read: Romans 13:9-10: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.”I really hope he does not read this comment, I mean no disrespect to the law and it’s officers. Specially since this comes from Mr. Sessions. My personal favorite government official who in the past said that people from the Dominican Republic have nothing to contribute to this country:…But then again, if he does read this, this is the bible. This is not me speaking. I have no voice, I am just a brown guy with a funny accent therefore I will remain a stupid Dominican as is my nature. Today, I will just focus on loving my two Americans (white) children while I still can in this country.

    1. creative group

      aminTorres:Seek out a concordance of the Bible. It can assist with the background on the passage that Paul wrote. (Not Jesus but Paul).That passage was also used by Slave owners over slaves who embraced Christianity.Do we really know the Bible?…Captain Obvious!#UNEQUIVOCALLYUNAPOLOGETICALLYINDEPENDENT

    2. PhilipSugar

      That is always the problem of abbreviated quoting.On that topic Sessions said in your video 95% of Dominican Immigrants were approved purely on family relationships not on proving they had a skill to contribute to the U.S., so that is a whole bunch different than your quote.Now he also talked about “sham” marriages. I told you the issues my SIL had with that and she has a PhD in Genomics from the University of Paris…..she doesn’t have a little to offer…..she has a ton.I’d love to know how many “sham” marriages there are in the Evangelical Community.And no matter what anybody says this is a marketing nightmare for talent coming to the U.S.You have a great Fathers day in the DR. Sometimes I wonder if with all of this there is an opportunity for reverse migration.

      1. aminTorres

        Here is the transcribed quote: “Fundamentally, almost no one coming from the Dominican Republic to the United States is coming here because they have a provable skill that would benefit us and that would indicate their likely success in our society,”This is purely an opinion. I would like to see the numbers that support this btw. Even if this is true, I do no see how this comment makes anything better to be honest. The opposite is true.That aside, I can name 50 or 100 Dominicans, easily, who have produced more benefits to the US (and themselves) that Jeff Session will in his entire life. I can name one alone among those who has made contributions to the US and the world, 1000x more than he has and ever will. Easily.Two more things for the record: 1) I am not an evangelical. I will stop there on that one.2) I am US citizen. I live in Brooklyn – not in the D.R. Myself alone, a nobody can easily say I contribute more to the US than Jeff Sessions. To start some place, I make 50% over his listed salary and I live in NY, so I am pretty sure I pay more taxes than he does. Or at least I am pretty sure I have not screwed the lives of large amounts of people.Flip this whole thing on it’s head and ask yourself: Why does the US has an embassy down in the Dom. Rep.? Why not just close it down?

        1. PhilipSugar

          I thought you’d be down for Father’s Day, I gave the exact quote from your video.I do not debate value one bit. By the way Dominican Day on the Grand Parkway is awesome.And yes I would agree you about Sessions.Yes I assume you are Catholic. I was sniping at Sessions.Many of the Evangelicals that espouse Family Values! Have anything but.

          1. JLM

            .Evangelicals are not Catholics, though Catholics espouse many principles – preaching the Gospel as an example – of traditional evangelicals.In fact, Martin Luther was one of the first to ever use the term and the term is used exclusively to identify Protestants who espouse the Gospel as delivered by the “good angel,” hence, the name.Approximately 25% of the US identifies as being Christian – an incredibly low number and one I question – and of that 13% identify as being evangelical Christians.Evangelical principles – such as preaching and living the Gospel – are found in many organized religions without the use of the word “Evangelical.”Having said that, the term evangelical as used in political hate mongering and division politics is very much a phenomenon of the mid-West.The numbers of self-identified evangelicals for political purposes is minuscule. Political marketers know this because they are hard as Hell to identify and target.And, yet, people like me have a positive sense of evangelicals though not self-identifying with them. It is because they are a shibboleth for “religion” of the form of God, guns, religion parlance.Much of this “other” targeting is done by Dems trying to tar believers with a pejorative brush.I don’t find evangelicals, as a group, to be fairly criticized as being false believers in family values. In fact, I believe it is quite the opposite.JLM

          2. sigmaalgebra

            Political marketers know this because they are hard as Hell to identify and target.To target Evangelicals in the US Midwest:(1) Start with the people who participate in Evangelical activities in, say, Winona Lake in Indiana.(2) There is no shortage of US Midwest Evangelical preachers without physical churches; continue with their audiences, say, in tent meetings.(3) For more, there are Evangelical publications and colleges — continue with those.Helps to spend some time in the US Midwest to see and believe some of this stuff!!!

          3. aminTorres

            I wish I was there though. Father’s day is a different day in the Dom. Rep. Same for mother’s day.I may have linked to a different clip, the actual quote I cited in my second response an accurate quote though perhaps not in that particular cut of the video. My apologies about that.Not Catholic. My parents go and took me as a child to a Pentecostal Church, but I don’t identify myself with a particular religion for the last 10 + years. 5 or so years after I moved to America.Ironically I feel I understand God better when I stopped identifying with a particular religion. I do believe in God despite no scientific evidence of him. I respect people who share my view as much as those who don’t.”Many of the Evangelicals that espouse Family Values! Have anything but.” this is sadly consistent with my experience.

    3. JLM

      .The second a politician starts quoting the Bible, I stop listening. It is a knee jerk reaction.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

      1. Donna Brewington White


        1. mike rhoden

          Judge not lest ye be judged

  7. fredwilson

    I deleted a comment in this thread that I found distasteful. Please be tasteful in your commentary. I am happy to hear opposing views But please avoid inflammatory language in leaving them

    1. mike rhoden

      Not sure why you don’t just delete accounts after stuff like this posted. These people can start their own blogs if they want to pollute cyberspace in such a manner. I don’t see that you are obligated to help them coarsen debate

    2. Fredsheets vs Soft-Heartedness

      Fred, you are losing touch with some basic concepts and instead allowing your heart to get in the way of your head. You make investments based on “Fredsheets”, right? How about using your head to think clearly about this issue.A country is defined by its borders. Think about that carefully. Then think about it some more. A country that does not control its borders simply won’t be a country for long.Two of the nicest countries in Europe, Denmark and Switzerland, have extremely tough immigration laws. Switzerland, by the way, also has an extremely high rate of gun ownership. Therefore the notion that a high rate of gun ownership necessarily leads to gun slaying and mass shootings is clearly a red herring. And no, I don’t own a gun. I have never even fired one.If the central government of USA wanted to allow a million or even a billion people into the USA that would be their prerogative. Generally the European Union allows citizens of its member countries to easily migrate from one country to another. If the government of USA wanted to, they could allow citizens of, say Mexico and Central America to freely migrate to the USA.But tacitly allowing significant illegal behavior undermines a government and often invites organized crime (an underworld). Illegal immigration into the USA is a significant form of illegal behavior.Legalizing marijuana made sense because the benefits of legalizing it far outweighed the costs of keeping it illegal. Now a formerly illegal behavior has become legal. The organized crime element is virtually gone, the legal system freed up, etc.But what would you have the USA do regarding immigration: simply open up the borders? It would be like you opening the door to your residence and saying, “Anyone who wants is free to come and live with me.”Countries in most of the world, including Latin America, have rotten governments. If you really want to help people in Latin America then it is important to focus on improving those governments. Most Latin Americans do not want to leave their countries to come to United States. They typically emigrate because they are tired of being abused, exploited, and living in poverty. In a nutshell: they are trying survive in places where “rule of law” hardly exists at all.

    3. mike rhoden

      I respectfully request you delete several of the accounts that have posted repeated vague, misleading, outright false statements and also personal attacks. Your blog is great but your accommodating this kind of trash is hurting the country. They should not be permitted a voice in a forum of this stature when engaging in this kind of conduct.This is my response to one such falsehood…..”You lie. “US Steel has returned more than 20K workers to the mills” is a lie. You learn well from your master. I am going request that you be removed from this board for abuse of privileges.”You can either remove the offender or remove me but you can’t have it both ways.

      1. Donna Brewington White

        Why are you even here if you don’t want to have discussions with people who disagree with you?You can also block the people whose comments you do not want to see.

        1. mike rhoden

          Mr. Wilson will determine whose arguments are legitimate. It is his board after all. You are merely a guest, as am I. I will abide by his decisions.

        2. mike rhoden

          what you are speaks so loudly i can not hear what you say

        3. mike rhoden

          5) We avoid aggressive “in your face” language …”Why are you even here…” ???????

    1. sigmaalgebra

      But she is so PRETTY!!!! Aren’t we supposed to trust such a pretty woman?????

      1. jason wright

        ha ha. biology can be so very cunning.

    2. SFG

      Fascinating! Elon is a bit better than her but not by much. Now, everyone go ahead and blast me for saying such a thing!

  8. creative group

    CONTRIBUTORS:A real irony is anyone attempting to use Breitbart as a legitimate news source and thinking people not part of the cult would not realize the propaganda being used. It invalidated an legitimate question regarding a source initially used.Captain Obvious!#UNEQUIVOCALLYUNAPOLOGETICALLYINDEPENDENT

    1. mike rhoden

      yes. anyone doing so should immediately be removed from the board.

  9. Bruce Warila

    I have been wondering if this policy is going to backfire due to unintended consequences? Could some South American families view this as free boarding school and a better life for their kids in the US?

    1. jason wright

      “just as I think it’s more sensible to be right-of-center in Europe”could you unpack your thinking on why that would be more sensible?- for anyone who didn’t catch yesterday’s AVC post… i am a European.

      1. maxniederhofer

        It’s a similar argument to the “swinging of the pendulum” above: Europe is more collectivist. As a founder and now VC, it’s perhaps not unexpected that I’d skew more individualist.In terms of character, I’m very high openness, high conscientiousness, moderate neuroticism (high for my gender), low agreeableness, low extraversion. It’s not a typical right wing profile, but again more individualist/creative so more right-of-center.My socio-demographic is privileged. In pratical terms, if I vote with my wallet, I vote for classically liberal, libertarian or conservative parties.In terms of my morals, I firmly believe in the individual’s capacity for transcendence, but also their capacity for evil. I believe in freedom as a value per se, tempered mainly by self-discipline. I dislike authority. I believe in the subsidiarity principle.Unpacked enough?

        1. SFG

          Did you take some sort of test to help define your character?

  10. laude05

    I too have been adapting a “pendulum swing” and “this too shall pass” altitude about most of what is happening in our politics. I cannot fathom how Americans of any political persuasion can think separating children from their parents is right and proper. Child abuse excepted, of course.

    1. mike rhoden

      You should not have waited until now to voice your objections. This train has been coming for a longggg time now.

  11. harvestgrand

    I love my children and would never dream of putting them in this horrific situation.I would think that this would impact the first few groups that attempted to come to the US illegally which would then make others with the same planS think “wow, the US is serious about preventing illegal immigration this time.”.Is there any evidence of a drop of families coming here illegally since this law is now being enforced?

    1. Dan T

      I guess it all depends on the situation you are leaving. I think I would gladly part with my children for a few weeks if it meant they might have a chance for a better life because we were being oppressed in our homeland. My father was an immigrant. His parents left him behind in Ireland for 10 years before he was able to rejoin them for a better life in US.

      1. harvestgrand

        Sounds like your grandparents did it the right way instead of turning the whole family into criminals.

        1. mike rhoden

          I respectfully request the moderator remove the comment above by harvestgrand.

          1. harvestgrand

            Can you explain why my comments should be removed? I do not understand.

  12. Tom Labus

    Like all the policies of this admin nothing has been considered other than the most base political immediate effect. It’s a tragedy that these people are being subjected to this insanity. The packaging of immigration as some how an economic panacea for the middle class (that has been hammered economically) is even a bigger ongoing tragedy.I admire you sanguine approach to this admin and trump but I’m having a very hard time doing so. I’m going to stay here until the snow flies and try to stay calm.Happy Fathers Day to all. https://uploads.disquscdn.c

  13. PhilipSugar

    I am wondering if he is doing it for the Michael O’Leary of Ryan air effect. O’Leary wanted to institute more charges so he made the ridiculous claim of he was going to charge to use the bathroom. Of course he couldn’t do that, but nobody focused on the other charges that went through. Common business strategy.Now of course here we are talking about human beings and frankly the most important and most vulnerable humans… So that strategy is completely unacceptable, but I am pointing out what I think is happening.

  14. SC

    Thanks for this post.Parents and their children seeking asylum are doing so because they were in horrific circumstances in their home country. They are fleeing violence and persecution. They did not decide to come here because they thought “hey, it would be nice to live in America, and they’re nice to us as long we get in, so let’s go.” Separating families like this is inhumane.For those asking what they can do, beyond contacting your legislators and demanding an end to family separation, please consider donating to the Family Reunification Bond Fund set up by RAICES (… to help get parents out of detention so they can claim their own children. Parents who are separated from their children (and other detained immigrants) can’t get released from ICE custody until they pay the full amount of their immigration bond, which can be tough or impossible for refugees. You can find more info on RAICES here:…What not to do: anything that is well-intentioned but supports or legitimizes what is happening, such as offering to foster these children or donating supplies to the detention centers.

    1. JLM

      .To be granted asylum in the US, an applicant has to pass something called the “credible fear interview” in which the applicant is given an opportunity to establish they are living in mortal fear of persecution based on race, religion, national origin, political opinion or membership in a particular social group.The vast majority of asylum seekers fail their credible fear interview even when represented by counsel.The Trump admin has dramatically increased the number of lawyers and judges handling these cases.When an asylum applicant is denied asylum because of failing to pass their credible fear interview, they are immediately deported.Those who pass the credible fear interview are sent to specific facilities to facilitate their assimilation into the US.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

      1. SC

        The credible fear interview is just the first step in the process of seeking asylum. The immigration bond process is separate from the credible fear determination.After receiving a positive credible fear determination, an adult who entered the US without inspection (“EWI” or not thru an immigration checkpoint) is referred for a full hearing in front of an Immigration Judge who then decides whether to grant asylum. But pending that hearing, the adult remains in detention until ICE decides whether to set a bond. If release on bond is allowed, the minimum bond level is $1500 (usually set higher) and can be difficult or impossible for refugees to raise.“Legitimate” asylum seeking families are among the families most hurt by current policy implementation. They previously were detained and then released together as a family pending formal asylum hearings. Now even parents who have received positive credible fear determinations can continue to be detained separately from their children pending formal asylum hearings.

        1. JLM

          .Not sure I get the significance of your comment, SCIt appears we agree that the “credible fear interview” is the gateway to asylum. I point out that a very small percentage of asylum seekers are able to pass this interview with a favorable outcome.The vast majority of interviewees are deported back to their country on the basis of there not being in any credible fear of persecution for the specific criteria.Are you suggesting that there is some unfairness in detaining an illegal alien who has passed the CFI until the court hears his case?If so, why does the US feel compelled to turn an illegal alien free in the country when all they have proven is they are “eligible” for refugee status?The issue of the bond is a red herring. The bond is only material if an interviewee asks to be released. The bond is not provided by the US, but by free market bond brokers, just like bail bonds in a US criminal court setting.”Legitimate” asylum seeking families are the same persons to whom the release bond applies. This is not a new category of persons.They are to be detained in family units – no children separated – unless there is no availability wherein they would be detained in adult and child facilities.This gets back to the 2014 failed Obama program which began to build more family detention units and then was cowed by the ACLU in a misguided attempt to overwhelm the detention capabilities.The current policy has only been in effect since 19 April 2018 and since that time fewer than 2,000 children (of all types, CFI positive or denied CFI) have been separated fm parents. The average separation is 28 days.The average separation is artificially lowered by immediate deportations which occur within days of being denied a favorable CFI.It is important to note that the Obama admin received approximately 65K unaccompanied child detainees through age 17. The Trump admin has received slightly less.There is no good reason why a favorable CFI – credible fear interview – should qualify a “refugee” for immediate release into the US. The court will do that within a short period of time if the hearing is successful.If I have misunderstood or butchered your point, please correct me.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

          1. SC

            My view is that it is wrong to detain these adults separately from their children.You’re right that the bond is material only if a detainee asks to be released. Some detainees do not ask to be released because they know they can’t pay the bond and are unaware of other resources. Which detainees most want to be released? Parents who have been detained separately from their children and want to be reunited.This is a terrible problem with no perfect solution. The choices for the US are: (1) release families together and risk that some don’t reappear for immigration hearings; (2) detain families together; or (3) separate families and detain the adults while sending the children elsewhere. In my view, the first alternative may be untenable long-term (and yes, raise the risk of child exploitation), but the third is inhumane.Also in my view: Nearly 2,000 children in six weeks is a lot of children. And 28 days (artificially short because of immediate deportations, which means the separation time is longer for families seeking asylum with positive credible fear determinations) is a long time for a child.

          2. JLM

            .Nobody WANTS to be separated from anyone. My father used to go on unaccompanied tours in the Army and we wouldn’t see him for a year. That was tough.I went overseas for 2 years when I was in the Army.My kids used to go to Camp Longhorn for more than two months in the summer time. Camp Longhorn was not as nice as the facility at Dilley, Tx. But, part of the allure of Camp Longhorn was its rustic nature. One of my kids loved it, the other hated it.So, a kid who is uprooted from his existence and faces up to 30 days of separation – driven by their parents’ decision – does not sound too draconian to me. Not wishing it on anybody, but not seeing it as the end of the world.In this instance, let’s start at the beginning – the only people who risk being separated are people who enter the country illegally.Bad decisions have consequences.”If you want your family, you can keep your family.”Just don’t try to break into the USA illegally.The notion of releasing families into the country pending immigration action was tried and it was a disaster.There are family detention facilities, but you have to make entry through a POE to even be considered. The ACLU kept the Obama admin from building more of them in 2014.Many of the separations are originally driven by the inability of the families to establish their actual familial ties. There are huge numbers of coyotes who bring children across pretending to be their parents.In 2016, there were 65,000 unaccompanied kids ages up to 17 (after 18, you are an adult). [As an aside, an unaccompanied child, who has bonafide relatives in the US is released to that adult. This is why some adults send their children separately.]Almost 12MM American children live in poverty – an all time low since Trump has become President.Surprisingly, there are 2.5MM children (half younger than age 6) who are homeless – an all time high.These numbers seem not to correlate but they are from reasonably reliable sources.I share that to say that the 2,000 children separated in six weeks (who face approximately 20-30 days separation) and the 65,000 unaccompanied don’t seem too alarming when you consider the US child poverty and homeless rates.If we are forming lines, it seems like the avoidable illegal immigrants form up at the back of the line by priority and size, no?JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

          3. SC

            There are a lot of large societal tragedies in the US. This does not mean we should let other tragedies develop until they rise to the scale of existing ones.The analogy between Camp Longhorn (where parents pay $4000 to send their kids off for 2 weeks) and the Dilley shelter is pretty stretched in my view.I’m a fellow Austinite…so perhaps we can chat further about this in person sometime. I suspect you and I are not going to agree on this but it’s always interesting to hear opposing views.

          4. JLM

            .You’re right – Camp Longhorn was not 2 months. I don’t know where I got that from. Mine went 3 weeks several years ago. Today, it’s $4.6K.I’m headed out of town for a couple of weeks. BBQ @ Green Mesquite when I return. Ping me.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

  15. Pointsandfigures

    https://www.nationalreview…. Agree immigration is screwed up. But, separating children isn’t exactly what’s being reported everywhere.

    1. PhilipSugar

      See my post. I knew it must be something like that. I am not debating you are using children as pawns. But basically if you are willing to plead guilty and go back to your country you are with your kids in 24hrs. If you come back a second time you are in real trouble. If you want asylum then you are separated. Now there is no doubt on the morality of using kids as pawns.But as usual the media doesn’t report the real story because it’s too hard. Just “They are separating kids from parents!”No if you don’t want to seek asylum from the embassy in your country and just show up (not debating if it’s not right to force the issue or do what you have to do) yes you get separated from your kids. If you are just illegally crossing the border and go back? No.Nobody gives the nuances anymore, just the screaming headline.

      1. Senor Savvy

        I read press reports average time detained is 58 day’s. Where are you seeing 24 hours?

        1. JLM

          .He means the time after an illegal is denied asylum or pleads guilty to crossing the border without an asylum request.Average time of detention is before you have a “credible fear interview” and have a hearing if you pass the interview.I have seen numbers much lower than that.There is something called the Flores Settlement Order which mandates that children cannot be detained and separated for more than 20 days. It is widely violated.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

      2. sigmaalgebra

        For yourBut as usual the media doesn’t report the real story because it’s too hard. Just “They are separating kids from parents!”IMHO, “too hard” is a white wash: Instead, there’s a bitter battle about immigration. Much of that battle is pursued as a big part of a bitter battle between Trump enemies and Trump supporters.Some of the bitter battle can be seen from the Senator Gillibrand remark about Trump “fuck no” I’ve quoted and referenced elsewhere here today. Some more of the bitter battle is from the Mueller probe and the corruption in the DOJ and FBI that started it.The FBI memo that started the Mueller probe was illegal in that no crime was clearly stated. Also the Mueller probe had Mueller with far too much power, power that under our Constitution MUST be from a nomination by the President and confirmation by the Senate. So, the Mueller probe is so broad it is unconstitutional.As Trump has made clear, he is staying out of the dirt at the DOJ and FBI. AG Sessions has to remove himself from the Mueller probe of the Trump campaign because Sessions was part of the Trump campaign. So, really, Mueller and much of the top of the FBI and DOJ are making fools of themselves. When the dust clears and the foolishness is clear to everyone, Trump and Sessions can just fire the all the DOJ and FBI fools and put in new people.IMHO, what’s going on is that a lot of powerful forces want to remove Trump from office. Currently their approach is:(1) Put out all the lies, leaks, misleading statements, just wildly invented accusations via the mainstream media (MSM) they can. In this way, reduce the Trump popularity and try to get more Democrat seats in Congress in the election this fall.(2) Have the Mueller probe continue to try to reduce the Trump popularity, also to get more seats. It’s fully clear that Mueller is not trying to bring any cases that have to do with the Trump campaign to court. So, instead, Mueller is just continuing to get headlines, IMHO, hoping to help the Democrats in the election this fall. Mueller is pursuing just politics and publicity, not law, national security, or anything about the Trump campaign.(3) Have these efforts give the Democrats a majority in the House in 2019.(4) Have the Mueller probe write a report that accuses Trump of obstruction of justice. Such a charge cannot be pursued in a court because (A) the evidence is not there, (B) a POTUS can’t be prosecuted for just doing his job, and (C) a POTUS can be prosecuted only by Congress and not by the courts.But the House can pass a bill of impeachment for any reason or, really, no reason. In practice now, all the Democrats need is a voting majority in the House and hope to have that in 2019 and then use a Mueller report as their excuse for their Bill of Impeachment. The bill will go to the Senate for a trial, and no doubt Trump will win. But the Democrats may win some seats and maybe the WH in 2020.IMHO, that’s what’s going on.So, “too hard” is just white wash: Instead, it’s propaganda, and part of a bitter battle, as bitter as the Democrats and anti-Trump people can make it without continuous, open violence.

        1. mike rhoden

          With all due respect, if any is due, you sound like a Russian bot.

          1. sigmaalgebra

            “Sound like” by itself means essentially nothing.If you have a meaningful point, then make it.

  16. Richard

    If you are “absolutely sure” that this is a hitlarian injustice and feel this strongly, why not take the all the lobbying money spent toward bitcoin et al. and all the gains therefrom along with the wealthiest Americans and invest in a solution.Aren’t you exhausted about being jerked around the chain by the media narrative being told what to think, when to think and how to think?I don’t know the facts here, but want i do know is the mendacity is our political parties is by far a bigger issue.

    1. JLM

      .A life well lived. An extraordinary testament to the power of an individual.Inspiring.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

  17. notes

    Let’s talk about what tech is doing to make this happen. Palantir makes the software that allows the ICE to track and target immigrants. Anduril is the new company started by Trae Stephens and Palmer Luckey to “buiid the wall” in electronic form. #gestapotech is happening RIGHT NOW. Anyone who is working with Palantir and Founders Fund is making it happen indirectly. It’s time to start paying attention. The nazis in tech really mean it. My step dad’s uncle Reinhardt didn’t have numbers tattooed in his forearm in vain I am not going to keep quiet while the same thing is beginning to happen here. The Nazi era started with hate speech and propaganda, then came the concentration camps and the “final solution”.

    1. mike rhoden


  18. JLM

    .When one doesn’t know the history of something, they often get it wrong.I have lived in Texas for more than 40 years, have had business interests in the Rio Grande Valley, have been to all of the border crossings along the Rio Grande, been to the facilities wherein illegals are held, have school mates (retired Marines) who run the entire border from Brownsville to El Paso, and have been interested in the topic of immigration sufficiently to delve into it.Bottom line: the problem is not what either the NYT or Freddie suggests it is.HistoryThe US has had historical illegal immigration from Mexico for a century. Mexicans have used Texas (and now the entire US) as a job fair coming for employment. The largest source of revenue going to Mexico has been “remittances” for decades.Most Mexicans do not cross with their children. No Mexicans seek asylum when they do cross. It is no big deal to cross the Mexico-Tx border for a Mexican. Many just pretend to be tourists and never return. Many come and go twice a year.Texans welcome Mexicans into Texas and the issue of their legality has never really been a big issue until the last 25 years wherein the magnitude of the immigration accelerated and what had been Mexico-Texas immigration became Mexico to the entire US.Left to their own devices, no Texans would get exercised about Mexican illegals except for drug mules, cartel activities, sex slavery, and smuggling.Adults, ChildrenWhen single adults crossed the border illegally they were subject to “catch & release” meaning they were apprehended, charged with a crime, and released to a future trial date.When families crossed the border (pre-2014), they were similarly released into the interior of the US and given court appearance dates.Guess what? They never showed up for their trial dates. Surprised?When children crossed the border (accompanied and unaccompanied) the gov’t allowed them to stay if they had US relatives who were in the country legally. This was contrary to the law in every aspect. But, if you had a legal aunt in San Antonio – it was Christmas.Remember, the Mexicans, in general, sent wage earners north and left their families in Mexico. I know this because I dealt with a lot of contractors and spoke directly to their men.2014All of this began to change in 2014 when there was a flood of illegals coming from the countries south of Mexico in Central/South America. The Obama admin called it a “humanitarian immigration crisis” and formed a committee to solve the problem. They never did solve it.Instead, the head of DHS, Jeh Johnson, was dispatched to Central and South America to tell governments that the US was going to return all immigrants to their country of origin (easier said than done and expensive as Hell) except for those who screamed “asylum.”To claim asylum, one must pass the “credible fear interview” during which an immigrant must establish they are in danger of persecution based on race, religion, national origin, political opinion or membership in a particular social group.Guess what? Every Central/South American immigrant began to state they were fearful of such persecution. Duh!Some, not all, of these immigrants were different in that they came with entire nuclear families supposedly fleeing hardship in their home countries. Many were women with children.Mexico facilitated this by allowing these illegals to move freely through Mexico even though they were illegally in Mexico.This raised the issue of “asylum” which is different from illegal immigration.An illegal who shouts “asylum” gets a hearing and if they can prove they are, in fact, bonafide “refugees” are admitted to the country. Most asylum seekers fail to pass the credible fear test and are set to be deported.This is what’s going on right now. Not garden variety Mexican illegal immigration, but “asylum” gaming.Family detention facilitiesThe US has had family detention facilities for some time, but didn’t have enough to absorb the tidal wave of 2014.To put this into perspective the 2015 number of families was 66,485 family units and in 2016 was 77,674. [Unaccompanied children was 65,000 by itself in 2016.]The Obama admin finally responded by using “for profit” prison companies to build more facilities. Some of these facilities were targeted to be temporary.The Obama admin built two facilities, but stopped when the ACLU began to agitate against them.The ACLU immediately began to attack the Obama admin for the condition of these facilities with an eye toward shutting them down. The ACLU believed that if they could shut down these facilities – some of which they did – the Obama admin would have no alternative but to release the detainees into the US on the same “catch & release” program as before.The ACLU was successful in shutting down the 700-bed Artesia, NM facility as the Obama admin was opening the 2400-bed Dilley, Texas facility. It was an exercise in Wack-A-Mole.But, these detainees were seeking asylum. The court system to seek asylum was different than run-of-the-mill illegal immigration cases.[Good time to note that the first time someone comes to the US illegally, it is a misdemeanor usually sentenced to time served and then deportation. The second such infraction is a felony.]The Obama admin became overwhelmed and simply did not have the space to detain families – most of which were mothers with children rather than nuclear families with a father.The Obama did have enough single male/female and children facilities (remember South/Central Americans were sending children to the US by themselves using cartel shipping agents at the rate of 65K per year).The Obama admin did nothing to build more family detention facilities after the ACLU attack. We are left with about 3,000 total family units at the border (more inland, but those are for refugees who have passed the “credible fear interview.”)Trump adminWhen President Trump was elected, the tidal wave stopped as the general perception was he was going to be tough on immigration. As it turned out, the problem went away for a few months and when he didn’t do anything on the issue, the asylum wave began again.President Trump did what was forced upon the DHS, ICE, ORR (Office of Refugee Resettlement), and the Border Patrol. They detained everyone where they had room. Remember, there was insufficient family detention facilities since 2014, but there was plenty of capacity in the single detention and child detention facilities.The Trump admin began to increase the judges and lawyers focused on the hearings thereby reducing the detention period and creating more process room in the system before either admission to the country or deportation back to the home country, but the tidal wave of asylum seekers was invigorated.President Trump then rescinded the Executive Order pertaining to DACA and gave the US Congress until 5 March 2018 to come up with a comprehensive immigration solution.The US Congress has famously failed to act on the entire issue of immigration of which family asylum seekers are a small part.What does happen?When a family is apprehended illegally entering the country (after they get a hamburger and a Hershey’s chocolate bar – the Hershey company donates the chocolate bars), they are detained.If there is room in a family detention center, they are routed there. If there is no room, they are separated with the adults going to one facility and the children going to specialized children holding facilities.This is absolutely no different than if Freddie Wilson was incarcerated and had young children. His children would be delivered to the appropriate child welfare facility and his children would be processed to either be assigned to a willing relative or a foster home.When the Trump admin assigned more immigration judges, the time period for a final determination of immigration status has been accelerated and an asylum seeker may be completely administered in as little as 20 days.[There is a 20-year old Supreme Court order called the Flores Settlement Order which provides for a 20-day limit in the separation of family and children when the parent is detained in an immigration matter. It is routinely ignored – not by huge margins – and has been since inception. The Obama admin was hauled to court over this several times in different jurisdictions since 2014.]Few family separations exceed 30 days.If an illegal immigrant fails to pass the “credible fear interview” they are deported immediately. Most do fail the interview.Bottom lineThe bottom line is this – this problem of asylum seeking families has been around since 2014 during the Obama admin.The family detention capacity issue has also been around since the Obama admin.Trump did the right thing in telling Congress this is their problem to solve with laws. Every member of Congress can take their full share of the blame. They are lazy do-nothings.Want to be pissed off at someone?Focus on your Congressman.Pres Trump is the only one who has forced the problem to be addressed and the good news is there are a couple of bills floating about which will fix this.The bad news? The Dems don’t want this fixed before the mid-terms because it is a juicy campaign issue and gets lefties worked up and guys like Freddie to write blog posts filled with misdirected outrage.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

    1. Richard

      To all of those wanting to do something, here is a start. Stop supporting the cartels by stopping the use of all illegal drugs that come from Mexico.Marijuana: Mexico is the number one foreign supplier of marijuana to the United States, and marijuana is thought to be the top revenue generator for Mexican drug cartels.Cocaine: Mexico does not produce cocaine, however, Mexican cartels move Columbian cocaine through South and Central America and into the United States. An estimated 93 percent of cocaine headed to the US from South America moves through Mexico.Methamphetamine: Mexico remains the biggest foreign supplier of methamphetamine to the United States, and Mexican drug cartels set up labs to manufacture meth on both sides of the border, controlling labs in Southern California as well as domestically.Heroin: While Asia and the Middle East remain the biggest producers of heroin, Mexican black-tar and brown heroin is on the rise. In fact, 39 percent of heroin identified under the DEA’s Heroin Signature Program (HSP) in 2008 came from Mexico, making Mexico the source country for many of the heroin abusers west of the Mississippi River.[14]

      1. JLM

        .There are insufficient words in the English language to accurately describe the depth with which I agree with you.Mexico has gone in my lifetime from being a wonderful place to visit to a drug cartel driven Hell.When you pass that joint, you support the worst kind of terror on the planet.Interestingly enough, cartel sales of weed have accelerated in states which legalized weed. More weed users from the legal stuff, but the cartels undercut the prices thereby absorbing much of the increased demand.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

        1. JamesHRH

          Law of Unintended Consequences + Regulation Tax.

      2. Donna Brewington White


    2. JLM

      . https://uploads.disquscdn.c… Here is the South Texas Family Residential Facility in Dilley, Texas.You will note that the facility looks like an oil patch labor camp, was brand new in 2015, and the kids are neat, clean, and well dressed. [The US gov’t supplies the clothes.]It is an unfortunate reality of the immigration situation in the US.Most of these kids will be deported back to their country of origin when their parents fail the “credible fear interview.”JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

    3. Senor Savvy

      Thanks for the write up and history. I learned a great deal. I think you are incorrect though when you say Fred’s outrage is misdirected. While Congress is not making headway in passing laws to fix this, for Trump to use children as pawns is his doing and his alone. Trump can decide today to stop this action and go back to what was done before. This is his way and Sessions of getting the word out down the Central American channel that he is tough and heartless. You come here with families you will be separated. Additionally setting up tent cities like a third world country for the children? How does that look to the world? I guess it Is fine since we are no longer leaders of the free world. Simply leaders of our own little America. To quote Trump: SAD.

      1. JLM

        .Reading comp problem, @senorsavvy:disqus. Going back to the Obama admin, this has been a problem with family detention facility capacity.There was a peak of family illegal immigrants from South/Central America in 2014.The Obama admin built some new facilities. The ACLU gave them Hell. The ACLU wanted to “wreck” the system to allow these folks to enter the country without the necessity to pass the “credible threat interview” test for asylum.What President Trump did was to abandon the pretext and to try to add capacity to the system by appointing more judges and lawyers. He did that.The time period for the determination of asylum status is 20-30 days. If they pass, the family is re-united and moved into the hinterland. If they fail, the family is re-united and deported to their country of origin.The facilities for detention in the US are not tent cities. They look as nice as the facilities we house our peacetime military in. See my earlier pic.The Obama admin sent Sec Jeh Johnson to Central/South America in 2014 to tell these countries to stop sending illegal immigrants to the US. Johnson told them they would be separated. The idiot also told them there is one exception: “ASYLUM.” He is an idiot.Congress needs to get off its ass and solve this problem.The solution is very easy – no more lottery, no more chain migration, no more anchor babies, merit based immigration, a pathway to citizenship (amnesty) for everyone currently in the country illegally (including all DACA persons) and The Wall.The Dems don’t want to give the President The Wall.The Goodlatte bill contains all of those provisions and the President has said he will sign it.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

    4. Fares

      This is great. I live thousands of miles across the world but I am interested in the details and not the headlines. Very interested to hear what more left leaning individuals would respond to this post with. I think the president can do more to pressure congress to clean up the laws, and not just dump it on them, but fundamentally agree with you in that this is a legal legislature issue, not an impulsive go/no-go issue the president should interfere in.Nevertheless, LatAm is the US’ back yard, and the US needs to take care of it better by investing in education, job opportunities, drug laws that reduce cartels, etc…you cannot rid yourself of the LamAm burden because its the LatAm burden that has allowed the US to grow to be the power it is today, largely based on immigrants building the country, and outsourced labour allowing cheaper manufacturing and lower cost of products for US domestic consumption. Its only right to return the “favor” by investing in your neighbours’ wellbeing instead of just shutting borders.

      1. JLM

        .By way of background, let me first assert that whenever thinking about the President’s role in legislation you are dealing with two co-equal branches of government. [The Judicial branch makes a third co-equal branch.]The President really only has the power to suggest what he will sign and what he will veto. Other than that – which is not insignificant – he has no direct role in creating legislation.One of the most powerful exercises of the “bully pulpit” is for a President to kick Congress in the ass and make them do their job.Many Presidents have used the power of Executive Orders to make legislation when they cannot get the Congress to act. Much of the current immigration dilemma has been caused by overzealous Obama admin XOs.These XOs have caused a world of distrust and bad juju.As to US’s role with Mexico and South America, it is colored by a number of things including a series of wars with Mexico, the nationalization of the US energy industry by Mexico in 1938, the building of the Panama Canal, the Spanish-American war which got us Cuba and Puerto Rico, and the wholesale importation of drugs from Columbia and Mexico.The US was built on European immigration and not Latin American immigration. There is not much history to support your assertion that the US was driven to grow by its relationship with Latin America.Texas, which was part of Mexico, and then an independent country came to be part of the US in 1845, long after the Colonies had established their European roots.Texas continues to be the gateway to Mexico while Miami, Florida is the gateway to South America. In Texas, we joke that south of San Antonio is like any other part of Mexico.Trade within NAFTA is quite well regulated. I personally agree with Pres Trump that the NAFTA deal is not fair to the US and was not from its inception.Mexico, in particular, through maquiladora plants has had a good run with more than 2MM workers working in close proximity to the US border providing final assembly of finished goods for the US market for US manufacturers.The #1 source of revenue in Mexico is “remittances” from illegals supporting their families in Mexico while working in the US. So, our economies are tied unalterably by the flow of cash. It is a bigger cash flow than energy in Mexico.The illegal immigration of Mexicans, South Americans, Central Americans into the US is commingled with the issue of drugs, sex trafficking, terrorism, and smuggling.In addition, the legal immigration system is a random lottery which fails to provide the US with the best and brightest immigrants based on a merit system.Within the next year, most of the big issues – lottery v merit, chain migration, anchor babies, asylum, temporary foreign worker programs, The Wall – will be solved.The purpose of The Wall is not to shut the border, but to control the border. The Wall is intended to control the points of entry and to ensure that people coming into the US are doing it legally.It has the same purpose as the Mexico-Guatemala fence, to control entry by forcing entry at specified points of entry.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

        1. Fares

          America was founded on European immigration, not built on it, there’s a difference. America is being built by all who reside in it andaeverone it trades with. Whites would not take the jobs of low wage south Americans today, and it’s whites who enjoy the fruit of cheap labour in the form of low prices of good manufacturered by cheap labour either in China or the US or elsehwere in the world.So the wall is a temporary solution only to the symptoms, if you want the US to maintain it’s global position as a superpower, you will need to invest in your neighbourhood.The rate of growth the US experienced over the past few decades is not because of whites domestically, it’s because of global trade and Latin Americans in the US working for low wages. If you stop that, you’re shooting yourself in the foot.

    5. Donna Brewington White

      JLM — I have read this a couple of times and appreciate the detail. I try to consider issues like this from differing perspectives and it is not as easy as it should be to get coherent information. Obviously, you have a conservative bent, but facts and observations transcend a particular ideology or political position. So much of the information out there is so bent out of shape that the essence of the situation becomes incoherent.It is hard to solve a problem that is not clearly articulated or understood.

      1. JLM

        .I am a conservative about things which are worth conserving. I am wildly liberal, as an example, on education, but prefer vocational training.In the end, my test is very simple — is it moral, fair, going to create tax payers, work, and be sustainable?JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

        1. Donna Brewington White

          Fair enough. :)Bottom line is that I appreciate your knowledgeable and even-handed presentation of the information.

      2. JamesHRH

        The bigger issue is to me is that it is hard to solve a problem when the people elected to solve it don’t care…..they just want to spin it.I think moderate conservatives are far more common than polling suggests….

    6. mike rhoden

      The use of the the word “Dems” is offensive. It is akin to “Japs” “Chinks” “Kikes” and “Niggers.” But you know that of course don’t you?

      1. Donna Brewington White

        Deleted. Flagged instead.

        1. mike rhoden

          Spare us your false sanctimony.

          1. Donna Brewington White


  19. Senor Savvy

    Fred thank you for putting into words what many of us cannot. In order to create change it is my opinion we must be “for” something positive rather than against a negative. To get to this place I would call on press and leaders cureent and retired (Boehner, Clinton, Bush, Obama, Carter) to convene a think group for a weekend with talented immigration attorneys too draft legislation that can be agreed upon in principal bipartisan. Then submit to the people of this country to press our inept congress and senate to implement. We must make the change that our current government is unwilling to do. Our press should be spearheading this charge. Who has the ability to get this started

    1. sigmaalgebra

      “Who has the ability to get this started”No one. You are missing the point.(1) The US has some long standing, nicely polished, refined, laws, policies, and procedures on immigration. They are fine and just need to be enforced. Trump is for those laws, etc. and their enforcement. It is generally believed that much of why Trump won was due to his positions on immigration.(2) Trump is opposed by people who don’t want the long standing laws, etc. What they want is a flood of immigrants, literally many tens of millions of immigrants. Some of the people want cheap labor. Some of the people want, eventually, more voters for the Democrats. For this flood, the desire is all means possible from open borders, lotteries, chain migration, refugees, HxB visas, financial aid for US higher education, etc.A lot of the people who want the flood are willing to put up with the fact that some, a disproportionally large fraction (with some numerical data from Ann Coulter), of the immigrants bring crime, illegal drugs, welfare needs, special educational needs (English as a foreign language, basic literacy, lessons in US civics and social norms, how to use a toilet, how to take a bath, how to brush teeth, how to obey US laws, how to be successful in the US economy, etc., little things like those), special medical problems (e.g., TB, measles, polio, GI infestations, etc.), international terrorism connections, etc.Such a flood is obviously strongly against the financial, public safety, and even national security interests of nearly all the US lower and middle class citizens, and obviously that is part of why Trump was elected and, now, is so bitterly opposed by people who want the immigration.For some of the people who want the immigration, there are big bucks involved; some of those big bucks result in campaign contributions and votes of politicians.So, it’s a battle. So, there’s no solution except via one side losing. In the end, the decision will be made by the US voters. The main venue (playing field, battle ground) of the battle is the media; so, there are big, 24 x 7 battles in the media, on blogs, etc.So far, Trump has been moving slowly. When clearly enough US voters and Members of Congress are ready, Trump will stop the flood of illegal immigration right away, months if not weeks.So far, it appears that Trump is winning this battle.While Trump wants to build a “Wall” on the US southern border, and while such a wall would likely help enforce US immigration laws, slow the flow of illegal drugs, etc., Trump and the US Executive Branch are currently just AWASH in super powerful means to severely throttle the flows and are starting to apply those means. In short, the illegal immigrants are, in a word, ILLEGAL, and the US is not short on means of law enforcement. Net, given appropriate public opinion, Trump can easily stop the flows.Then the US will be back to our long standing, historical laws, policies, and procedures on immigration.

      1. mike rhoden

        No you are wrong when you say “It is generally believed that much of why Trump won was due to his positions on immigration.”It is generally believed he won because he pandered to racists and to people who want the country to be a theocracy as opposed to a democracy.

        1. sigmaalgebra

          In what way did “Trump pander to racists”?In what way does Trump want a “theocracy”?Let’s see some credible evidence, with quotes, credible references, hopefully to primary sources.IIRC, Trump started running about three years ago; there’s lots of data on him including lots of his speeches, e.g., with video on C-SPAN and YouTube and transcripts. I have a lot of the transcripts.Let’s see your data.Accusations alone without out data, references, etc. are less than just meaningless.

        2. PhilipSugar

          That view point is actually why Hillary lost. I know it’s very popular with the Liberal, Washington, Coastal, Hollywood, Media, and Technology elite.People got tired of being told that they were the root cause of other’s problems when they were just busting butt to make ends meet.They got tired of either real or perceived special treatment of other groups and when they spoke out about their views they were branded a “racist” They were tired of double standards.They got tired of those people saying things like we know what’s good for you, free trade is good for you…..and they are sitting there looking at factories getting shuttered.They got tired of being told if you don’t agree with my college elite politically correct view point of the world “you are not enlightened” “you are a racist”They don’t understand why those elites don’t understand it is them that get up every morning and fix the sewers, run the electric lines, fix cars and look down on them like that.How do I know this? I am an elite. I start and own software and technology companies, but I like and respect and work with those people.I live in a big old house. I generally show up in a 2001 Chevy pickup truck.Yesterday I was getting mulch in it and the guy was closing early but he opened back up and gave me a load, he said I know you must be really humping to work today (meaning you need the money and must be doing a side job). He said he was going to a famous dock bar. I said if you can’t find a spot park on the clam shells behind my house. Silence. That is your house? What do you usually drive?I’ll go down into the hole and hold a Schedule40 sewer pipe so he can put on the glue, I’ll clear brush. When I did that last week the head of the crew said “what’s it like working for the owner?” I turn my head one way and say. What is like working for you. Then I say you are a ass. Laughter.At the bowling alley after I really was interested in skill of the guy drilling holes in my ball, he came up to me in my lane and said: they say you are the guy that lives in that house and travels 250k a year are you that guy?These people all voted for Trump. 80% in my county. They don’t mind if you made “cheddar”, they grudgingly accept all sorts of flaws, and think well he is certainly not perfect.But he said I hear you!!!!They know what a racist is and they do not accept them. They shun them. I’ve got stories on that too.But they do not like being told they are in a basket of deplorables, by somebody that puts their nose up. They want to be recognized and Trump did that.

        3. PhilipSugar

          I know I’m picking on you but would a theocracy be considered a total outsider that knocked out the third generation of Bush’s who was the anointed candidate and then beat the person who’s husband was President and had his private jet stop the Attorney General’s on the prosecution of his wife? And raised $500mm from private sources such as investment banks and middle east countries? Just wondering your viewpoint? And no I can’t see what you replied to.

          1. mike rhoden

            I respect your coherent responses. However the “working” class, whatever that is, was not so much recognized as they were conned into believing they were recognized. And the con continues with yet more trickle down and dismantling of protections for the poor and environment. No serious economist believes this combination can or will help the “working” class long term. And anyone who ignores the significance of the groveling to the American Taliban with promises to deliver anti-women justices who would protect “religious liberty” (the ability to shove their dogma down your throat) is simply not being intellectually honest.

          2. JLM

            .If you were a steel worker in Pittsburgh or a coal worker in W Va, you had no choice but to favor Trump. HRC was going to put you out of business.Witness what has happened since then – steel is hot, US Steel has returned more than 20K workers to the mills, the economy has US mills running at high utilization rates, Trump has enacted steel tariffs and has forbidden “dumping.”The steel and coal guys got exactly what they wanted.When you make promises, keep them — you’re going to do fine at the ballot box.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

          3. mike rhoden

            Ah, I see now. HRC hater. I’m no fan of HRC either. Where we disagree is on the costs this country has incurred in preventing her from ascending to the throne and how it happened. And I do not regard one issue voters as particularly patriotic given the compromises that were made here to satisfy often petty and sometime mean-spirited parochial interests. But of course, there are those who believe trickle down works, Mr. Mueller’s investigation is a “witch hunt,” and that our dedication to the rule of law is fully intact. I have to go now. Busy week.

          4. mike rhoden

            You lie. “US Steel has returned more than 20K workers to the mills” is a lie. You learn well from your master. I am going request that you be removed from this board for abuse of privileges.

          5. PhilipSugar

            The con was one party taking advantage of their support and assuming that would always be the case despite their declining fortunes.I am an observer. I make no political views. But when I see the elite feel like they got sucker punched in the gut, I point out where it came from.

          6. mike rhoden

            It wasn’t the elite who got sucker punched. We are making money hand over fist! It’s poor people who got conned. You people are too much.

          7. JLM

            .A guy who hasn’t seen the inside of a church except to get married, did not run or appeal to those who want a theocracy. That’s total baloney.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

          8. mike rhoden

            To say the prez election did not in a big way turn on the ramifications of that election on the appointment of next Supreme Court justice simply disqualifies one from any serious consideration whatsoever.

          9. JLM

            .A conservative SCOTUS Justice does not correlate with a theocracy.Pres Trump delivered on his campaign promise. Big league!JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

        4. Donna Brewington White

          If he won because he appealed to racists, well that’s a lot of racists. Many of those same racists previously voted for Obama.Many voted for Trump for the same reasons they previously voted for Obama. He promised change. There are a lot of desperate people in this country.

          1. mike rhoden

            That is not a valid argument. Nobody said all, most or even many of the voters were racists. You falsely imply such was my statement. What is a fact is that current POTUS lost the popular vote by 3M+ and won key electoral votes by razor thin margins. In my opinion (and the opinion of many of students of poli sci) those margins were a result of whipping evangicals into a frenzy about a culture war and also by getting just enough of the lower end of the net wealth spectrum to scapegoat other people at the lower end of the net wealth spectrum. I have seen footage of 2016 GOP rallies. The vulgarity and transparency of the attacks are beyond reasonable debate. Sorry – we must agree to disagree.

          2. JLM

            .I know the numbers on the election as well as anyone on the planet.DJT won in places where Obama carried the day twice.The swing voters did not support HRC.DJT was right about the GOPe, the DEMe, the pundits, the media, the pollsters, and HRC. He under polled by 5-6%.It is perfectly fair to suggest that DJT did not “win” but, rather, HRC “lost.” She did get screwed by Comey.The nonsense about the popular vote is just that, nonsense. You play the game by the rules. The rules say, “Electoral College, not popular vote.” You play to win the Electoral College.HRC was an extremely weak candidate, a candidate without definitive plans, and ran a poor campaign. A comparison of the number of visits and the number of events in swing states tells all you need to know.I remember questioning the wisdom of DJT visits to places like Pennsylvania, but then HRC had Obama backfilling for her in Pennsylvania and knew it was tight as a tick. Obama owned Pennsylvania. HRC should have owned Pennsylvania.Both of their internal polls were showing the same thing – Pennsylvania was never locked up by HRC and DJT always had a shot.There are not enough evangelicals to tip an election if you got 100% of them plus their cousins. It is a virtually mythical distinction. 25% of the US self-identifies as Christian while 13% of that 25% self-identifies as “evangelical.”DJT did much better amongst soccer moms who voted their husband’s wallet and their own pocketbooks. Think about that. This is a demo owned by Obama and lost by a woman, HRC. How did that happen?We will be studying the brilliance of the Trump messaging and going over the heads of the media for the next century.He was a part time amateur who re-wrote the manual. It was Trump. He did it for less than half of what HRC spent because he had dead aim. She had a spray gun and monumental hubris and arrogance.She thought she was entitled to win.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

          3. PhilipSugar

            I would say the last sentence is the most powerful one. For people that have no entitlement that one pissed them off.

          4. mike rhoden

            It is the “elite” as you described yourself earlier that feel entitled to everything. Other people’s children can suffer because you had the good fortune to be born someplace they were not. Some people just don’t get – or don’t WANT TO GET IT – life is random. So have a little more compassion.

          5. mike rhoden

            “The nonsense about the popular vote is just that, nonsense.” Pretty much says it all.

          6. Donna Brewington White

            It is generally believed he won because he pandered to racistsNobody said all, most or even many of the voters were racists.Not sure of what the purpose of pandering to racists would be if not to get their vote.

          7. mike rhoden

            Another false argument from you. It wasn’t necessary that all, most or many of the voters be racists in order to pander to racists. That’s the purpose. It was to win at the margins by appealing to lowest of the low.

          8. SFG

            Love your post Donna. As someone might say, “well played”.

          9. Donna Brewington White

            It was just too easy, but thank you.

          10. PhilipSugar

            Ok….you are a PoliSci guy. My love but not my business. Engineering at Business at Penn but Karl von Vorys at Penn:… hard electives for an M&T major.Why could DJT win without the popular vote?Well when the 13 colonies were deciding to become the United States small states like DE and GA with one tenth the population of PA and VA realized they would get steamrolled.That is why there are checks and balances.Congress was made up of two houses:Representatives: Population basedSenate: State basedBTW used to be 2 Reps per Senator now 4.3 per.Both have to approve bills. President nominates judges, only Senate approves.President gets elected by electoral vote by number of Congress.Now yes the POTUS lost popular vote by 3mm. What was the margin in CA? 4.5mm. How about NY? 2mm, How about IL? 1mmSo the Constitution worked exactly as the founding fathers wanted. They did not want a state like CA steamrolling other states. And with the other 47 states it wasn’t “razor thin”

          11. mike rhoden

            “And with the other 47 states it wasn’t “razor thin” is a false statement.” Unless you consider victories based on under 100,000 votes anything more than razor thin. And the electoral college was nothing but a bow to get the slavery creeps on board. Sorry to inform you.

          12. JLM

            .The Electoral College was established in 1787. All of the Colonies had slavery at that time. There was no controversy.The only Colony which ever did not have slavery was Georgia from 1735 to 1751.You may be confusing the history of the Civil War era.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

  20. sigmaalgebra

    I posted earlier today; Fred Wilson “removed” my post. A copy of my post is available at…Have to scroll down some distance. Letting your Web browser search for “swallowing” should get you there. Since maybe the post is seditious, offensive, toxic, in violation of PC norms, unsuitable for Victorian Garden Parties, etc., maybe first clear the small children from the room!My post was heavily in response to Wilson’s:In time, Trump will be history and we will undo all of this nonsense he is putting in place. I found this remark of Wilson to be (1) without good rational support, (2) “inflammatory”, (3) “distasteful”, (4) hostile, partisan, and in strong conflict with the clear, thoroughly documented facts.”Trump” “putting in place” “nonsense”? “Nonsense”????? Wilson gave no references to anything at all significant Trump has done that is like “nonsense”.On “nonsense” from Trump, let’s see:Donald J. Trump ?Verified account @realDonaldTrump…Our economy is perhaps BETTER than it has ever been. Companies doing really well, and moving back to America, and jobs numbers are the best in 44 years.Donald J. Trump ?Verified account @realDonaldTrump…The denuclearization deal with North Korea is being praised and celebrated all over Asia. They are so happy! Over here, in our country, some people would rather see this historic deal fail than give Trump a win, even if it does save potentially millions & millions of lives!Donald J. Trump ?Verified account @realDonaldTrump…Donald J. Trump ?Verified account @realDonaldTrumpFunny how the Fake News, in a coordinated effort with each other, likes to say I gave sooo much to North Korea because I “met.” That’s because that’s all they have to disparage! We got so much for peace in the world, & more is being added in finals. Even got our hostages/remains!Donald J. Trump ?Verified account @realDonaldTrump…Democrats can fix their forced family breakup at the Border by working with Republicans on new legislation, for a change! This is why we need more Republicans elected in November. Democrats are good at only three things, High Taxes, High Crime and Obstruction. Sad!So, from from the NYT via Wilson we haveYet for George W. Bush and Barack Obama, the idea of crying children torn from their parents’ arms was simply too inhumane — and too politically perilous — to embrace as policy, and Mr. Trump, though he had made an immigration crackdown one of the central issues of his campaign, succumbed to the same reality, publicly dropping the idea after Mr. Kelly’s comments touched off a swift backlash. Looks like deliberately misleading, partisan propaganda to me.Again, a recent Trump statement on caring for the children of illegal immigrants quoted just above. And there have been more and similar such Trump statements in the last few days.To me, enforcing our long standing laws, policies, and procedures is a crucially important issue for the US now. Trump is strongly on the side of the enforcement but he is opposed by strong forces who want(1) to permit more illegal immigration, especially across the US border with Mexico,(2) immigration from various countries via a “lottery”,(3) getting more immigrants as “refugees”,(4) letting recent immigrants bring in more immigrants via “chain migration”,(5) letting illegal immigrants live illegally in US “sanctuary cities”,(6) giving illegal immigrants “amnesty” so that they can work in the US legally and move toward citizenship and voting,(7) oppose the long US tradition of mostly only “merit based” immigration,(8) oppose a program of E-verify to be sure anyone working in the US is legally permitted to do so,(9) import students and give them financial aid to US higher education, aid paid for by US citizen taxpayers often having difficulty paying for such educations for their own children.Much of this opposition is for what is clearly ILLEGAL.Much of this opposition is very bitter. E.g., we can recall the reaction of NY Senator Kirsten E. Gillibrand’sHas he kept any of these promises? No. Fuck no, with lots of hits at Google including at…

    1. mike rhoden

      The thief in chief is utterly untrustworthy. This is not opinion. It is fact. So why put his tweets in your post?

      1. sigmaalgebra

        I’m strongly for Trump. I don’t want to be wrong. If there is something seriously wrong with Trump, then very much I want to know what that is. Much of the media has been going 24 x 7 with really nasty accusations about Trump, but so far the worst accusation I’ve seen with any credibility is something about Trump having a second scoop of ice cream. Since that is the worst the 24 x 7 bitter accusations have found in 500+ days, Trump looks especially clean.If you have some solid evidence, “facts” where Trump is”utterly untrustworthy” in any significant sense in his work as POTUS, then trot it out — no one could be more eager to see such evidence than I am.If your “facts” are so easy to see, then let’s have some references. I don’t have any and can’t find any.So far what you have is nothing, not more than zip, zilch, or zero. Just by common sense and moreover just via common high term paper writing standards, we need credible references, hopefully from primary sources.Trot out your data.

        1. mike rhoden

          ” I don’t want to be wrong.””If there is something seriously wrong with Trump, then very much I want to know what that is.”Which is it?

  21. LaVonne Reimer

    This is the time to park nuance, finesse, dissembling, and what-aboutism. These actions in which young children are helpless, are imprinting trauma in a way that will endure over a lifetime for too many. It is not necessary. You can be angry about illegal immigration and disbelieve stories of pain and suffering that drove parents and little ones from their homes and still believe that there are ways to address the situation without traumatizing children at the least. What a complete failure of imagination. If we who fancy ourselves entrepreneurial through and through cannot do better, then it really is time to grieve.

    1. sigmaalgebra

      I can believe that a lot of the involved children become traumatized. Maybe they are still young and tough and will shake off and outgrow the trauma; maybe they will be traumatized for life; maybe they would be more traumatized back in their home countries; maybe this and that.For how the children are handled, can seethe current article…There can see in part…and They have limited access totelephones to call relatives, both in theU.S. and abroad. They receive therapy,both as individuals and in group sessions.They enjoy field trips to local museums,parks, and the zoo, where they can explorethe city beyond the shelter. And theyalso have social activities, including arecent “prom” for which they dressed up.Heck, I never attended a prom!!!!Trump claimed yesterday that he’s totallyagainst separating the children but (1) hehas to because that’s the law; (2) he’llsign another law TODAY; (3) but the Dsjust want a campaign issue.

  22. sigmaalgebra

    There’s some wise, old advice:Always look for the hidden agenda. Okay, apparently we have a big example to expose today.We start with the strong fact that there are a lot of powerful people in the US who want a massive flow of immigration to the US, tens of millions of immigrants.To continue on exposing the hidden agenda:E.g., at the main page of Breitbart now can see headlines…Hollywood Legend James L. Brooks: Trump Using ‘Children as Hostages to Get His Damn Wall’by John BinderNeverTrump Hayden: Trump’s Border Policy Like Nazi Camp…by Neil Munro Then at…we can see articleFather’s Day, 2018: Left Outraged by Don Jr. Loving His Children about Don, Jr. playing in a swimming pool with two of his children.Don, Jr. did a Tweet with a really nice picture with his children.Then there were a lot of Twitter responses about the children of apparently illegal immigrants from Mexico being separated from their parents on the US side of the US-Mexico border and how ashamed Don, Jr. should be about that.The Twitter responses used apparently an orchestrated list of synonyms about the children beingripped awaytornneedlessly separated from their parents.So, for the candidate hidden agenda:(1) To have cheap labor and more Democrat voters, have massive, a flood of, immigration to the US. The illegal immigrants are preferred because they are easier to exploit.(2) Trump is trying to stop massive immigration and illegal immigration.(3) The people who want the flood of immigration are mounting propaganda efforts against Trump. These propaganda efforts are heavily, centrally organized — can conclude this because of the gang up and pile on with the same content at the same time.(4) Currently part of the propaganda effort is focusing on how the US takes care of children of apparently illegal immigrants at the Us border. The propaganda wants to claim that with the US actions the children are beingripped awaytornneedlessly separated from their parents. There is a currently, highly publicized picture of two children in a small, wire cage.(5) A theme in the propaganda is that anything from the Trump family or administration that looks like they are being good with children will be used to bring up the claim of the children being mistreated at the border.(6) One of the first examples of this theme was the bitter attack starting with the gorgeous, idyllic portrait of Ivanka holding one of her children a few days ago.(7) Then apparently today the theme is to use Father’s Day to attack Trump over the children at the border.So, that’s the hidden agenda for today: Attack Trump and his family on Father’s Day about children at the border.So, we have lots of headlines, Twitter responses, an NYT piece, an AVC thread, all on Father’s Day and all about the children at the border.If you don’t see this as a hidden agenda from organized propaganda, I’ve got a great, once in a lifetime, deal on a bridge over the East River you better catch right away! And if you call now, I’ll throw in a bottle of pills, a miracle weight loss cure derived from the roots of a rare plant deep in the Amazon jungle!Folks, it’s propaganda with a hidden agenda — a massive flood of immigration to the US to have cheap labor and more Democrat voters. Looks clear enough to me.Wait!! There’s more in line with the rest!! This just in!!! Some more apparently organized, gang up, pile on, timed for Father’s Day, against Trump and the whole family, Don.. Jr. and now also Melania!!For this one, definitely have the kids out of the room! This one is from Kathy Griffin, you remember, the last news from her she was holding up a model of a bloody, severed head of Trump. So, right, this time she is after Melania. Yup, somewhere it’s on Twitter, so that’s a solid, primary source. A link to an associated story at Breitbart is…The Twitter link seems to be…

  23. Dan Love

    Thanks for this post. I was very heartened to read it. Complicated issue as many commenters point out, but I think there’s no need to over complicate this one. Folks that point out it’s not a new issue. That’s true. But the point of leadership is to lead.Simply put, this policy is the darkest thing this admin has condoned thus far. It’s a moral issue and a line too far.

  24. CJ

    It is sometimes so hard to read the comments here now. 🙁 It reminds me that there are people who worship their ideology so much that they lose all empathy…or that they have no empathy to start. There have been many times where I’ve been sad to be an American, this is just one more.We’re not great anymore and nothing done in the last two-ish years has made us any greater – quite the opposite. When we have people defending the separation of parents from kids only because their ideology precludes them from considering otherwise, it really makes me fear for the future of this country. But the market is up so…yay team? /sigh

  25. Jim Ritchie

    Late to this thread and Happy Father’s Day to all. Spent the day with my very active 88 year old Father, ex-Captain Army Engineer and Army Special Forces and all around good guy.Also, here are some more facts and not speculation by the NYT. I find it a travesty that parents would send their children to the US illegally with someone else, according to DHS, 10000 of the 12000 kids were sent with other people.