Haven

Our portfolio company Open Bazaar released a new mobile app called Haven today.

The idea behind Haven is:

Finally, people anywhere in the world can connect directly to each other using their mobile devices and trade privately with no credit cards, no banks, and no tech companies tracking their activities, or charging listing and transaction fees. 

Here’s what the front page looks like:

And here is what an item listing looks like:

Note that you can pay for this coffee maker in Bitcoin and Litecoin.

Haven is built on the Open Bazaar protocol:

Haven creates a mobile window into the groundbreaking OpenBazaar network powered by cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash, Litecoin and Zcash (Ethereum coming soon). Over 250,000 nodes have been created by people using this peer-to-peer network since the release of version 2.0 and tens of thousands of listings have been put up for sale from crypto tokens to original paintings by popular artists to business services. OB1 expects Haven to rapidly bring even more users onto the network who are eager to shop, chat and send cryptocurrencies privately from their mobile phones.

If you want to check out Haven, you can do that here.

#crypto#marketplaces

Comments (Archived):

  1. Richard

    Reminds me of a 1980’s Staten Island flea market, fuggedabouditt

    1. William Mougayar

      eBay started by selling Pez dispensers.

      1. JLM

        .In American dollars and with credit cards. Every cryptocurrency use is a taxable event to the purchaser — who has to establish original basis, value at time of transaction, and pay taxes on the appreciated difference.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

        1. Sam

          As more people and their accountants get familiar with cryptocurrencies the reporting burden decreases; already we see software that makes this process much simpler. Hopefully we’ll see the government wise up and create exceptions for small amounts.Also not all countries have those same standards.

          1. Michael Brill

            What is an unreported, de minimis transaction to you is a red flag to the IRS to dig deeper.

          2. awaldstein

            yes of course.but Haven needs to own making this happen.sure there are tons of programs and consultants out there. no standards for what is correct as it is hard to do and kinda a big mess.and our CPAs are truly clueless.approachable problem that is not a mystery how to fix but only if the intent to own and fix is there.by you folks i presume.

          3. JLM

            .My accountant does not work for free.In what universe does the IRS create an exception for “small amounts?”You ever own a few million shares of a penny stock? You have to account for every single one of them — basis and sale price.The taxpayer has the accounting burden, not the IRS.To buy a freakin’ handmade copper pipe drip coffee gizmo?JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

          4. William Mougayar

            The IRS is in the process of clarifying cryptocurrency requirements. But we shouldn’t expect surprises. There are several accountants big and small who are already versed in crypto accounting, today.

          5. JLM

            .The accounting for crypto is not difficult. It is the same for buying 10 shares of ExxonMobil and deciding to sell 3 of them.You have to decide which 3, identify your basis, identify their value at the time of the sale transaction, and pay taxes on the appreciation (profit).90% of Americans don’t keep their credit card slips.So, now not only does one have to keep their transaction information, they have to fold it into their annual tax return. Ugh.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

        2. Michael Brill

          This is such a *huge* issue. Having spent 80+ hours on crypto taxes this year – with the use of software – I can’t imagine what a cluster it will be dealing with random transactions.

        3. Richard

          Crypto is a digital cult / religion that doesn’t require tithing or helping the poor.

      2. Richard

        Let’s not romanticize eBay. It’s really never been a great product. But no one is opening a Bitcoin wallet for the purpose of purchasing a copper coffee maker (who in their right mind would drink anything from a product this isn’t inspected/regulated – who certified that it’s actual copper etc) But yes, there will always be a market for junk. But as you said many times – differentiating your product by the payment means isn’t enough. Fred posted this only weeks ago. The only feature that kept ebay above water was the way it and credit cards protected buyers in disputes and thefts (my account was hacked) – and this is the one feature that Haven does not have in common with eBay.

        1. Sam

          Hello, I work on OpenBazaar.Haven doesn’t use credit cards, but it does have escrow and dispute resolution. There is a competitive marketplace for people offering dispute resolution within the application (and they’ve been vetted by the company who built the app).

          1. Richard

            That’s helpful, but you will be busy. There is reason that credit cards charge 2% – risk of loss is a real expense.

          2. JamesHRH

            And, transaction satisfaction delivered via frequent disputes is an adoption issue.

          3. JLM

            .Resolving eCommerce dissatisfaction is the secret sauce of brand loyalty. Amazon has made me a customer for life with their means of dispute resolution — which means they basically always do more than I want.I had a free-standing tub complaint that required returning a bath tub. When I was done, I got a new bathtub and the price of the tub in Amazon gift cards. I am not certain just how that happened.They got loyalty for life.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

  2. jason wright

    Can this be shut down by court order?

    1. JLM

      .As a matter of practicality, a court will only shutdown a business if it has committed a crime or is accused of fraud that would result in further damage if allowed to continue to operate.The civil legal action would be a “temporary injunction” that is only granted if a Judge opines that the party seeking the injunction is likely to prevail on the merits of their complaint.A temporary injunction is followed by a hearing at some later time and the granting or denial of a “permanent injunction.” Usually the parties work things out between the temporary and permanent injunction hearings.In a criminal matter, a grand jury would vote a “good bill” — meaning they would approve some prosecutor’s charges. It is joked that a competent prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich.Then, law enforcement would raid the business and seize the computers, records. Think about the Manafort and Roger Stone raids as an example.They would also likely take the alleged criminals into custody.There is likely a sales tax issue associated with this. I imagine sales tax is a major league pain in the ass using cryptocurrency.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

  3. awaldstein

    Curious about this and been following them from the early days.Seems to be a social media aspect to this and presuming that this is the bet on the demand side to make this work.How demand happens in a p2p ebay like segment is interesting and puzzling and unknown.Hope they do an AMA soon to clarify this.

    1. Michael Brill

      Isn’t liquidity the big question for every network? Would love to see more focus on use cases where existing fees were ruinously high (e.g., gift card sales) or even semi-legal use cases with no public harm (e.g., P2P wine sales!)

  4. kenberger

    Crypto in exchange for drugs (albeit loosely, re CBD if we assume this is in a US state such as NY)– an original alleged use case…Only partly kidding– I’m astounded by the legalization of cannabis products in a number of US states, and all of Canada. Yet when you visit the outlets, they can only take cash. Seems like a great early use case for crypto solution disruption.

    1. awaldstein

      True for most Cal Brands.Exception is LA brand Dosist https://dosist.com/ which uses gift cards. Fill a card with your CC and buy what you want. Great company btw. Boutique on Abbot Kinney.In Colorado, there are a bunch of crypto solutions–CC to crypto for exact amount of purchase. Used one a month ago.Know that Dash has a big partnership with Cannabis POS Alt 36 but haven’t seen it anywhere.But yes, mostly crazily cash.

  5. Mark Gavagan

    Hmm. Part of Airbnb’s success is rooted in removing risk by providing reviews and ID confirmation for buyers and sellers – Haven seem to be moving in the opposite direction. While I think Airbnb’s fees are high, I do value what they provide and am happy to pay for it. I’m curious to see how Haven evolves over the next year or two.

    1. William Mougayar

      There is an escrow service that mitigates that risk. The escrow’s reputation is what counts and they shield the privacy of users.

      1. Mark Gavagan

        Thank you. I completely missed that.

    2. Michael Brill

      The other part of their success was focus on a single problem where no good solution existed. I just wish there were more of a go to market culture in the decentralized world.

      1. Mark Gavagan

        Hi Michael. Can you share a few examples, please?

        1. Michael Brill

          Well, that’s the question. What type of products benefit from an anonymous, decentralized model like this? A trustless system for offline commerce that should benefit massively from trust is unintuitive to me.They aren’t trying to be Silk Road 2, and the current dumping ground for every garbage listing and fake review can’t possibly get traction. I’m a strong believer in single user value and I don’t see that here.The only thing that makes obvious sense is to operate in gray, legally or culturally complex areas where privacy is important but there isn’t a single regulatory authority that would/could aggressively shut things down. e.g., products that had export restrictions, were culturally/legally questionable (driving manuals for women in Saudi Arabia!), p2p-restricted products (e.g., alcohol in the US), etc. I’m sure there are better examples.Or perhaps focus on the shopping modality. e.g., demand aggregation for overseas products to remove importer/distribution layer. Bartering with path finding (I have X and want Y; you have Y and want Z; they have Z and want X). etc. I dunno, there are a million ideas… not my job to play junior product manager I guess.Back to the original point. If Airbnb launched a site to rent everything – shoes, lawnmower, extra bedrooms, etc., then nobody would have funded them because they wouldn’t have been able to pull together a decent go to market plan. I just would love to see one use case for this where I could see people going through all the hassle to transact.

          1. Mark Gavagan

            Interesting. Thank you Michael.

  6. curtissumpter

    This is cool.

  7. phoneranger

    Do they take Paypal? Venmo?

    1. Sam

      It uses cryptocurrencies exclusively. Currently Bitcoin, Bitcoin Cash, Litecoin, and Zcash, with Ethereum coming soon.

  8. William Mougayar

    It is the beginning of something new definitely. We are not used to the rawness of peer to peer commerce, because we have been trained to believe we need the eBays and Amazons. Maybe not for everything. If DuckDuckGo gave you search privacy, Haven gives you ecommerce privacy (and more).Disclosure (I’m an investor & board member).

    1. JLM

      .Why do I want ecommerce privacy when buying a copper pipe drip coffee machine from a Bedouin tribesman in Bum Fuck, Egypt?Why don’t I want a trusted intemediary who is used to buying from camel jockeys and who will send me tracking info as to where my copper pipe drip coffee machine is currently located?Why don’t I just want to One Click Jeff Bezos and go back to my email?Asking for a friend.BTW, I needed to re-order something I couldn’t remember from whence I had purchased it. I went through about a million different accounts. Not one of them did I care who knew what I bought.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

      1. William Mougayar

        As I said, it’s not for everybody, but it will be very attractive to a growing segment of users

        1. sigmaalgebra

          “Growing” can include 0, 1 next month, 2 next year, …!

        2. JamesHRH

          You know we like and respect you William – but that comment has ‘hopelessly devoted to you’ playing in the background.

          1. William Mougayar

            I believe in the future of p2p commerce, and this is the best experiment we have to see if it will take-off, regardless of whether I’m an investor or not.That said, yes I’m supportive of my investments and teams. Nothing wrong with that.

        3. JLM

          .The underbanked, a proxy for poverty, are going to conduct their business in crypto?They have no money. They are underbanked in great measure because they have no money to be banked.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

      2. Russell

        JLM – you’re better than that. Casual racism doesn’t help make a point.

    2. awaldstein

      Convince them that communications is more than half the battle.The answer to demand is consumers/buyers feeling comfortable and the mass market for stuff needs it to be easy.Comm strategy is key.They have you and you know that.I’m routing for them but the announcement needs more clarity.

      1. Sam

        I’m on the OpenBazaar team. Thanks for the feedback. What do you feel would be most important thing to communicate about Haven?

        1. awaldstein

          Hi!Link the complete Q & A to me pls and I’ll read. Also the press release on this announcement so i can hear this in the company’s words.–from who you are and how to handle taxes to how to resolve disputes.-want to understand the tone as to why this is fun and some reason/drive for people who use ebay and craig’s list today to switch.And also, so curious about the social media positioning.Consider a weekly AMA for a while as there will be lots of questions and you want to own the answers.

          1. Sam

            This is the article where we introduce the reason for Haven exsting:https://gethaven.app/blog/f…And here we talk about how it protects user privacy:https://gethaven.app/blog/w…The company itself doesn’t play any role in the transactions, disputes are handled by third parties (called moderators) who are voluntarily agreed upon by the buyer and seller.The main website page has links to various social media platforms if you’re interested:https://gethaven.app/

          2. awaldstein

            Thanks.I’ll spend some time on this.Curious that you start with privacy and what other’s don’t provide as a means of defining what you are.This is a very hard slog.

        2. JamesHRH

          That the people you don’t know on the other side of the transaction won’t rip you off.Not that you can settle disputes, but that disputes are unlikely because there is a consequence to ripping people off.Like, not getting to use the platform.

    3. Mike

      I’m not certain that addressing concerns over privacy on its own will create new demand for ecommerce, or capture existing share from incumbents? Really interesting concept, however, and it will take time to separate the wheat from the chaffe. I think back to Amazon circa 1998, Google or Facebook in the early days. Who could have predicted. I wish the team well on their journey.

    4. creative group

      William Mougayar:We appreciate your continued integrity. Thank you for the disclosure.Captain Obvious!#UNEQUIVOCALLYUNAPOLOGETICALLYINDEPENDENT

  9. Salt Shaker

    Do they provide buyer protection and is there a monetary cap on a claim? I recently tried to exercise buyer protection on a damaged item bought w/ a Bank of America CC past 90 days. If the item is damaged by a flood, earthquake, tsunami, lightning or a Swahili tribesman, then their coverage is truly fab. (In other words, it sucks.) AMX, on the other hand, is not nearly as restrictive w/ their policies. Devil in the details. Asurance of privacy less of a concern for me than insurance on my purchase.

    1. JLM

      .One of the reasons I adore Amazon. I have had nothing but great luck with their claims resolution. In every instance, they left me better than when I started.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

      1. Salt Shaker

        There’s no better retention tool than a good customer service experience.

        1. JLM

          .+1.2MMIt is not just retention. It is loyalty, zealotry, fandom.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…

    2. Chimpwithcans

      Here in Africa I’d value the ‘Swahili tribesman’ cover….sounds like sensible coverage to me 😉

  10. awaldstein

    Went back and read everything on their page as I’ve been following them for a bit.Need to say that positioning feels a bit mushy to me.It’s kinda everything including a social network and they are bifurcating the world into those who give a shit about privacy and those who don’t. Those who choose DuckDuckGo and those that don’t.Basically telling me that I am not a customer so don’t bother.Was always curious whether these apps would find core value and shoehorn in privacy. They at least choose the opposite route and make privacy the major piece of their vision.Might work. This is choosing a very hard path.

    1. Salt Shaker

      With DDG, privacy fundamentally is the company’s brand positioning…and it works. With an e-commerce platform, like Haven, privacy can’t singlemindedly be the company’s positioning, there are too many other variables in the purchase decision-making and e-commerce equation. There needs to be other meaningful benefits as part of their marketing bundle, with privacy obv a core attribute and key differentiator.

      1. awaldstein

        Don’t disagree.I’ll play with the app a bit though.Surprised they are positioning this to avoid the broadest part of the market which of course is essential to prime the marketplace on both sides.Curious why they are not on this thread answering these items.

      2. JLM

        .DDG works at a “mayonnaise on hot dogs” level whereat users still use Chrome or Edge. It has an infinitesimal market share with a single USP.It is not a market. It is a period at the end of a sentence. It is a process, not a product.JLMwww.themusingsofthebigredca…