Feature Friday: Liking A Checkin
It's feature friday and today I want to talk about our portfolio company Foursquare, which put out a completely redone app this week on iOS and Android. Blackberry is coming shortly.
I've got a few simple frameworks for thinking about things. In social media, one of my main ones is the tenet that 1% of the users will create content, 10% will curate it, and the rest will consume it.
Foursquare has, for most of its life, focused on the 1% who want to checkin to places and share those chekins and related data like tips and to dos, with their friends. They have close to 10mm people who do that actively. That's a lot if you think about it in the context of the 1% rule.
About six months ago, Foursquare launched explore which was a consumption experience. Users who don't want to checkin can get value by exploring cities using the data created by the 1% who are checking in.
But what about the 10%? How do users curate Foursquare without checking in?
Enter the like button. It seems so trivial. It seems like every social app I use has a like button. But in the past 24 hours, I have gotten something like a dozen likes on the four or five checkins I have done since the new app launched. That's new meta data that is being created on my checkins by other people. It's a way for people who will use the app largely for consumption to create important data signals without having to checkin.
Sometimes it is the littlest things that are the biggest things. In the new Foursquare app, which is really really good, I think it is the like button that will be the biggest game changer.
I love 4sq, it is addictive (although I don’t use it enough, as many of my peers in CT are not regularly using it or are even signed up)It was neat to see the 4sq logo on the side lines during march madness along w/ twitter & FB.I follow and read dens tweets – mostly checkins – he leads an interesting life which is well tracked/published on the internet.I wish Dennis would comment on AVC – maybe he did in the past, I have not yet seen him weigh in on any AVC post. Maybe today will be the day.I will check out the 4sq like button, down loaded 5.0 last night.That’s my 4sq story
he might do that today. he has in the past.go to gawk.it and search for dennis crowley and you will see them
Dens has commented here before.
I think I once read that – 4sq unofficially launched on AVC b/f SXSW
I remember that – wow am I getting old….
He’s not super active around avc, but he does chime in from time to time -> http://gawk.it/search?searc…
I tried Dennis … and got to a post where there was an awesome photo in time-square.http://fredwilson.vc/post/5…
Ah nice! The only think you know for sure you’ll get when you gawk.it is….awesomeness! ;-)Disclaimer: gawk.it awesomeness is directly due to the efforts of the 1% that create the content gawk.it indexes
@falicon:disqus you indexed the comments and posts? based on what ?likes, no.of.replies, no.of.comments … just a scientific curiosity … if u don’t want to answer in public you can leave a smiley.Disclaimer: I am no internet geek in fact not that much an user of internet … the time i spend on internet is AVC (mainly), check mail from friends on yahoo and then radiology related search on net using google.
at the moment the system is primarily driven by the disqus api…so when a new comment is posted my code gets the text of that and adds it to the index…it also checks to see if the associated blog post has been indexed, and if it hasn’t it will grab the text behind that too…the disqus api has all sorts of meta data available with each post…I include some of it to improve search results, but I dn’t do anythink with the likes yet (mostly I just make sure things like usernames and real names are also searchable for a given comment.btw – there is very little I won’t share in public about a how, what, or why I do a project…only things like the process/formula that was behind the knowabout.it are ‘secrets’…if it’s something that anyone could do just by trial/error and lots of study/research then I am happy to help people get through that quicker (I have found that if it’s easy to copy just from an explanation, then it’s really not that unique and others are prob. already doing it…why not share and let everyone benefit?)plus success is often in the actual ‘doing’…not just knowing how 🙂
@faliconI am just throwing my 0.02 $I do beleive you should attach either ‘like’ ‘vote’ as a sorting criteria in the comments sorting and see what comes out. (as an added criteria to the searched words…if it is just name being searched then sort by date).Similarly the number of comments on each post for post sorting and again if it is again name sort by date.Just see how one blog behaves to this sorting.BTW, It is not always about ‘doing’ … sometimes it is about knowing how and inventing …http://patentscope.wipo.int…I no own anything on it but it worth now some 10-13 million. It is a long story … to shorten it … I (we) donated it to the guys who are good at ‘doing’.
Thanks! I will def. continue to play with the sorting and ranking options to see if there are better/more interesting options.The invention you point out is very impressive…regardless of any money you did or didn’t make on it, you should be very proud of it.Oh, and it’s official…this proves you are at least 1,000 times smarter than me! So please just keep me in mind next time you want to donate a multi-million dollar idea to someone… 😉
@falicon:disqusI am proud of it and that is why self-trumpeting about it with you :-).My point is not about who is smarter … there is a say going around for years “Ideas are worth dime a dozen and execution is everything” … my point is both are as important as the other.
Pondering the 1%, 10% paradigm.For Tumblr by design, the creator percent feels much higher likewise the explosiveness of it as a power net. The more people are empowered as creators, the more it pushes the virality of he system.
i think something like >80% of the posts on tumblr are reblogs
You must hang in different circles to me because my tumblr dashboard is mostly reblogs. Or as one friend puts it, tumblr is a cesspool of copyright infringement.
I guess. I limit my following on most of the nets and change it weekly. I get a ton of new content of Tumblr both tech, art and music.
What drives virality is a very interesting topic. Empowerment is one factor but there are others.
Freedom to express creates an environment that drives the want to express.I can’t think of anything that is more powerful to drive virality.
I like the new 4Square & downloaded it right after your checkin yesterday that mentioned it.It’s a great V2 for a product that’s already loved. I did do a double-take when I saw the Like button and my first reaction was – it makes so munch sense, but how did we live without it before! 4Sq also has been granting curation rights levels to some users that can fix errors or merge locations. I really like the improvements they have made with Explore on the Web side. It is rivaling Google searching for locations. With all this, doesn’t this make 4Sq look a lot closer to Yelp? And is that intentional?
that’s now how they think about it, but yes it does.
And Yelp added check-ins.
I love the new friends timeline — takes me a couple of flicks of the thumb and I’ve seen what everyone is up to, plus their new connections, badges etc. Nice.
Likes will become the atomic unit of consumption on 4SQ just like it has on FB and other social services.It’s a natural progression to the lowest common denominator.For me though, I’m all liked out.
Check in, I’d say, is atomic unit. Gotta be there b4 you can like it.
I have to be on location to like something? I can’t batch like sitting at home in my underpants?
“I have to be on location to like something?” – no, not saying that. But generally, I think I have HAD to have been on location at some point to like whatever it is at that location…generally, not always.I don’t want to know what you do in your underpants, batch or otherwise.
yes, but 1/10/100the checkins get amplified by the likes
“Amplified” – that’s the key word/concept.
and the likes are the ad model that the user is fully aware of — i know when i check into union square cafe and say i had another fun meal that it is being posted as my endorsement, in the context in which i post it … and that is a key difference between this and the reviled like/ad model on another social network
Not only is each check-in amplified by its likes, but likes in turn inspire people to check-in. Call me shallow, but I am much more likely to continue checking-in if others Like my previous check-ins (or try for the first time if I see others being liked). More check-ins add value to the network — this is good.Check-ins continue to be the atomic unit but likes help turn them into stronger molecules. (Not a perfect analogy…but my valiant attempt…)
Yep.Like my check-in? Meh. Leave me a note about how much you love the decor/coffee/staff/strudel and we’ve made a connection. I only value one of these things.
spot on Cam
Meh for me too.How long before ‘frictionless’ liking as on FB? Entering the same location will automatically trigger a like.I know the data on a per-user and aggregate level is useful. but still, meh.
Meh should be a button, a new social gesture, kind of between a Like and a down vote :)Or maybe it’s:Yeah Meh Boo
More personality = better. More automation = scale.Balance is the key, I agree.
certainly i think we will see an evolution of this kind. certain content management systems already have a like module that lets you customize and configure all the options to your liking. i think communities will need to rely more on human intelligence and cultural standards before being able to really aggregate this stuff meaningfully on a mass scale.
You say that but if someone you respect publicly likes something you’ve done you get a little kick of that feel-good chemical in your brain. That’s what makes these social recognition tools so powerful.
I really don’t. In certain, rare contexts I might even be offended.
Agreed. If someone really appreciates something it will be in form of a private message or an outreach, other than a Liking.
Maybe you are some kind of super-human with control over his involuntary brain functions but for the rest of us those little nods of social approval are powerful for the very reason that we can’t control our responses.
For that to be true you must first accept that likes have some sort of currency. I don’t anticipate tying my self worth to an effortless gesture any time soon.
My head wants to agree with you but my heart betrays me to those insidious likes.
@cammacrae:disqus I see it like being honked at on the street, or whistled at. Depends on who does it 😉
We’re social animals, but we also shape our society – how much do we really need social approval….
Watch a parent talk to their toddler – they are shaping them to act in ways that society approves of with every “good job!” and “you did it!”Likes and follows are the internet’s version of those small behavioral reinforcements.
So, you’re on the side of agreement that Disqus should be showing who upvotes/downvotes comments? 😉
I’m on the side that Disqus should switch back to likes.
Luke, I’m with you. I really dislike the upvote/downvote element. That they are currently split is an improvement over the first iteration (in D12), but I’d rather have likes as before. A “disagree” option would be fine as well.This isn’t Quora and the discussion serves a different purpose (to me), so likes or voting affecting position in the thread is also not something I like. However, I’m not suggesting removing the sort-order options for those who prefer different context. As @philipsugar:disqus mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the voting on sub-convos and off-topic tangents messes up context as well if sort-order is changed to promote certain comments.
Exactly. This is a discussion not a place you are trying to find an answer.
excellent point about quora and the validity of downvoting there.
This comment supports your view I think.And damn… where the hell are the rest of my comments 🙁
Yes exactly, I think it’s a driving force of social media – for better or for worse.Disqus comments are a mess at the moment. Threads are out of order, comments missing.
This is exactly why I think downvotes are a bad idea to have involved in discussion. It makes it far to easy to react, instead of engaging in discussion to voice your irritations/whatever is motivating you to react; And if the strength to react isn’t strong enough, then the person wouldn’t have influence on the conversation.
I’ve given up beating that drum; looks to me that they’re here to stay.
Clearly there’s a demand for it.
Maybe in other parts of the blogosphere? We’re pretty spoiled at AVC. The “comity” that @JLM:disqus reminds us of every so often.
Right, though we should all be concerned with the quality of conversation and acceptable communication practices across the web. Fuck that up and you’ll have a devolving social environment, rather than fostering an educational / learning experience.
I’m still trying to sort out why the down-vote bothers me. I believe there are times when it is valid — on turntable.fm for instance. But there is a specified meaning for the down-vote. I think the song is lame. It’s like booing the song. If we looked at commenting like giving speeches, then perhaps we could justify voting on the quality of the speech. But commenting is a discussion (Disqus-sion). I try to think of what an up-vote or a down-vote would look like in real life. I think a “like” would be a thumbs-up, a high-five, a nod. You don’t really need to explain that. But if you made a statement and I gave you a thumbs-down or shook my head after you finished, you would want to know why. It would feel like immature conversation if I expressed negative response merely with a gesture. It would shut down communication. You would want to know WHY I am shaking my head — why I am disagreeing. Something would feel left undone.The up-vote, down-vote brings to mind “performance.” And sure there is a bit of performance in commenting, but I don’t think we want to treat it like a performance.I think that what we do online should have a real-life equivalent that makes sense in real life. The two need to be in rhythm to keep what we do online authentic.
Right. For content, that’s totally personal preference and most likely to effect your own suggestions — probably not a general amalgamation, or well it will, but then that allows content discovery. Content is different than conversation.Re: Conversation and downvotes – You want learn, not just simply be put down.Agree fully with trying to sync real-life to online as best as possible. Downvotes in conversation don’t mimic real-life.
Intriguing thoughts Donna. Stirring the tanks.
You guys are doing a lot right, too.I have been under the radar much of the week – not commenting much – and today, Disqus felt sleeker to me. Lots of fun little surprises – although I know Daniel probably mentioned them in the blog.
That requires a lot of handling, monitoring, and setting a tone.We’re just short of scale here. I am more than curious about how to handle these sorts of comments at 1000-2000 comments a post and create community in them. (that’s scale). There should be a hackable way of dealing, much like the way megachurches deal with scale and community at the same time by creating sub communities for different people. I just have no idea what the tools to do something similar would look like…
i’m with you. my big gripe is that it’s so impersonal, so mechanical and automated. i miss the good ol’ days of seeing who liked my comment. or better yet, having someone reply to me dissing me, and then seeing who liked THAT comment.
haha! now *that* is a thing of beauty, kid.
liked and completely agree
Sorry, Kid, had to “like” your comment. We’ll have to wait for another one to “diss”, although I’m not much for dissing in general, so it probably won’t happen. It is often entertaining (and educational) to watch you and your antagonists spar, and you’re right, the down-vote option allows for the cop-out barb instead of engagement. 🙂
@mattamyers:disqus So a down vote should actually warrant a comment, rather than just ‘boo’.
Exactly.Imagine if it was socially acceptable to just blurt out “Fuck you – shut up” when someone doesn’t like something you say, instead of having thoughtful words to say – that will either present a new / different viewpoint or at minimum let you gauge the value of what that person has to say to you – if they have valid points or not.You won’t feel very welcome in that crowd, and that doesn’t facilitate higher-level conversation, nor foster learning and being respectful, etc..
Those environments exist – see http://www.amazon.com/Deale… – and are surprisingly productive.But a good point.
Thanks – I’ll check it out.
Voting up or down is much better when you can see who is doing it – that way it is engagement. Anonymously it has little value.
Absolutely. There’s accountability then.
I would like to weigh in. To me, the feature being discussed – moving an arrow “up” or “down” next to a comment – What does it mean? That someone is in agreement/disagreement with the comment? That you like it? First we must be clear about that. Secondly, the debate around anonymity of those marks: in a mature discussion group such as this one, the focus should be on the context of the comment, not on who-and-how-many people bumped it up in agreement. It is a feedback mechanism that does have value in anonymity. If someone wants to go on the record in agreement with a comment and by name – well, then, leave a comment yourself.
I agree, I think haters are going to hate and downvote just gives them an avenue. If a comment sucks and nobody likes it, it will sink down. Which brings me to the next point which is I think reply comments should be limited to ten, in that way you can’t get to the top page by glomming onto a high rated comment (there is irony in this reply here I’ll admit). Finally I think the root commenter should be able to curate the replies.
Yes, no & definitely no!The main solution is to delineate levels of comments, most likely through a visual cue (colours, maybe).When you scroll down and see and intriguing comment that appears to be an island, it can be very very difficult to connect the reply to the comment (@danielha)
Look, this comment could be the worst ever and if Fred doesn’t delete it stays right at the top, not because its good because I’ve glommed onto a top comment.. C’mon haters, hate. I’m going for the record downvote on this comment. “I’m in my 40’s I’m a man I can take it!!” (See OKSt Football coach)
I understand what you’re saying. Essentially you think there should be a moderation, perhaps having a default ‘Hide’ setting in case something isn’t “worthwhile” to being at the top?It’s definitely something that has to be fiddled with.
Great reference.If I view comment w the Newest setting, it doesn’t, FYI.Comments are like a cocktail party discussion. They veer, they track & sometimes you walk to other side of the room when some blowhard jackass just won’t shut up.I like @wmoug:disqus ‘s Like / Boo / Awesome idea. Its like making a nasty face while standing behind the blowhard jackass.Voting up and down is not what comments are about, if you see voting as a quality creation mechanism (ala Quora).
so awesome…makes me think of this song/video that I love -> http://m.youtube.com/#/watc…
By that measure you couldn’t have made your comment and we’d all be poorer for it.
Nor yours, though it would likely cause spillover of continuing communication via a different method; Not sure if good or bad, though likely annoying.
Nope I’d have to have made it at the root and could bubble up if it was good.
Interesting idea on the cap.For the cap suggestion, do you mean to actually limit the number of comments to a parent comment – or the number of likes/upvotes? Eg: It would become a form of quality control?Re: Root commenter being able to curate replies – I’ve not thought through this one before. Do you have use cases for why this would be good, and perhaps why it might be bad? I understand it would be good for eliminating ‘bad commentary’ – though that could equate to censorship / bring the negative values of censorship along with it, say if someone just deletes comments based on it not agreeing with their point; You could then learn the character that the parent author has, however I am not sure how you would successfully present that to everyone involved / reading the discussion.Awhile back I analyzed Reddit’s conversation patterns and there is definitely a big problem – well, a big problem potentially, depending on what your intent / purpose is. These platforms are trying to create a one-piece-fits-all, mainly for the purpose of less development time/effort by allowing for redundancy, though each context requires nuanced differences from what I have seen. I’ll forever begrudge over this topic in hopes to persuade / convince others in ‘power’ to allow these systems to exist.
My point is that right now this thread which is not pertinent to the post is up at the top and this comment will be at the top. That should be limited. If you want to get at the top make a good root comment and get a bunch of likes.Having the commenter curate means that some of the little back and forth like me and Charlie the other day can get hidden which is fine to make room for the good replies.You should own your comment.If you delete stuff just because you don’t like the person replying to your comment they can call you out with a good root comment move to the top and push yours down.
i shared that with Daniel and he told me they understand the issue and are thinking about how to deal with it
I find the idea of the root comment that everyone is bringing up kind of interesting – is there really such thing as the root of a conversation?
The purpose. Focal point. Reason. Subject. Topic.
@ShanaC:disqus @EmilyMerkle:disqusIs it not serving the ‘also on AVC’ at the bottom of each post?I thought that is the criteria.
Or follow me on Tumblr. 😉
Difficult on a soft keyboard….
I don’t disagree. But the issue is less to me about what makes a response useful and more about how to empower mobile as a more complete language that somehow (dreaming here) we are not so contrained by the limitations of the input device.
Aren’t they two sides of the same coin? Language has to have utility, even if that is limited to signalling we belong to the same club. I’m most interested in maximising utility.
You are correct Cam.
Which is why I think it’s important to foster communication more so than likes/dislikes; Words have much more nuance to them, with likes/dislikes of course being an easier but rough metric for computational systems to use/manipulate.
Agree that we don’t need to *encourage* the 1/10/89 rule, just because it is standard behavior. What if invent *new* experiences that inspire the next version of the social web (ugh) to behave differently.One of my favorite stories to tell about foursquare is how they didn’t give people the option to not show your phone number to certain friends. Rather than playing the feature creep game, they too the stance, “If you don’t want someone to see your number, you shouldn’t be their friend”.All that rambling to say, I would rather have foursqure take a road *other* than likes and insist that actually talking to your friends is a better way to indicate you’re excited about where they are, what they’re doing, and who they’re with.
@thomasknoll:disqus how does it work 1/10/89 does that mean the creator and curators don’t use the service? I thought 1/10/100 is right. Just curious on why you changed the ratio …
I’m not saying 1/10/100 isn’t right.There are 10 different versions of talking about the ratios of creators/interactors/consumers… but they all basically assume that *very few* people actually create, a few more will respond/comment/curate/like/love/share/vote, but the majority will just look (maybe learn) and move on.But, much like the education system in every state in the US I have lived in, I am afraid that we are building/catering the tools (tests) to the behavior we are observing, and putting ourselves in a catch22 vs innovating on new tools and processes to inspire a different behavior.Supposedly Einstein said, “The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.”Is that what we’re doing by blindly adopting these “intent” buttons on every single service?
Our recently published research shows that Liking is 5th on the list of Social Gestures, after Commenting, Sharing, Replying and Following. http://www.engag.io/about/s…That said, I think Fred is saying that Liking is valuable for Foursquare specifically.
Well, Liking is valuable everywhere – however that value will likely shift depending on context, as do most things. What matters is how the data will be used, it depends on what the intent or end goals are.
Likes could be used to bubble up the comments. It’s a signal. Just like here on Comments, you can view by best, newest, oldest.
Absolutely agree. And in many contexts it can be a misleading signal that can be very hard to read algorithmically.
Absolutely! I think it’s overused in many cases.
This is an important point. Liking should indeed be seen in the context of ‘social gestures.’ And social gestures are deceptively tricky social objects.’Like’ for example is a highly context sensitive gesture. It should not be seen as just ‘liking’ something as if that thing has some essence which the ‘liker’ is endorsing. It is precisely this context sensitivity that makes it so malleable and widely used. For example: college boy meets college girl and friends her on Facebook. The next day she finds he has ‘liked’ a series of her photos. Does this mean he likes those photos? No. He is signaling that he likes her. Etc etc. Similarly, believe it or not, there have discussions of the phenomenology of ‘poke.’So to naively take ‘like’ as some kind of endorsement for marketing or other purposes can be dangerous.This warrants a whole post.
It does warrant more on that subject. It enters the real of implicit vs. explicit meanings of the social gestures.
I agree that this is a bigger discussion than a few comments here and there. In such gestures, context matters, semantics of the UI labels matter, other optional gestures present matter… There must be clarification of intent to have real value in communication.
Exactly. The reason people find themselves using ‘like’ is precisely because of its malleability. It if just meant you absolutely ‘liked’ this thing you are liking it wouldn’t be half so useful.
Overall, I agree with this comment and have said something similar elsewhere — about the contextualization of gestures. However, I think that in the 4sq context there is some relevance of likes for marketing purposes. As an element of marketing — or even as marketing data — for further processing, of course.And anything that a web product can do to foster engagement then gives them more access to the user– and that access, in the end, is what it is all about.
No. You cannot sell likes. You cannot buy likes. You can for sure cheat. It is just too complicated business modeling. It also has a short life span.After using a lot of 4sq, what I do is just stick to mayor-ships. That’s it. Few comments and specials.. but mayor-ships are the game.4sq had a potential to go deep. To connect real-world and virtual-world. Giving us back imagination. Mayor-ships are just that – imaginary status symbols. They should have worked more in that direction.
But someone might be able to make marketing decisions based on the trends that likes reveal.
actually the mayorships are expressed as “badges”. Some give their “mayors” special treats.
exactly! that is status converted to real life benefit. On Serbian market we did the first ever foursquare mayorship rewards (for KFC campaign), while I was at the agency….that should have been explored more.. I doubt that likes will bring such rewards or emotions as mayorship brings.
Have you got a link to what you said elsewhere?I agree wrt engagement. But of course a huge amount of social communication offline as well as online is not ‘about’ anything obvious. It has greater emotional significance than empirical content. I touch you to show I care. Providing tools to show you care in a ‘vague’ way is valuable, and a huge amount of human communication takes this form is is the real value of social networks. Ironically it is the more specific, more directed interruptive interest graph probing that is obviously directly valuable for commercial purposes but liable to dilute the social process users signed on for.
The idea is for Foursquare to foster connection between the User and the Destination. How that is calibrated is between Foursquare & each restaurant…I have some thoughts; I am not privy to the plan.
.I want you to be embarrassed by this comment.As a result of your survey and watching you deal with the panel at Blog World, I am anointing you as one of the most knowledgeable persons on this planet as it relates to what is going on in regard to commenting, sharing, replying, following and liking.You really know your stuff..
That is an embarrassment I can handle 🙂
he better be!
@liad:disqus I cannot agree with your sentiments emphatically enough. If I could up vote multiple times, I would.Liking FourSquare check-in’s (or checkin’s or chekins) seems like a waste of server space to me. It also seems like transparently obvious status-seeking behavior. “Look where I went! Tell me how awesome that is, in a measurable, quantifiable way, by accruing likes for this one time event.”
Definitely “check-ins”. 🙂
Props to 4Sq for adding likes, and this gives me an excuse for exploring some related themes:First off, let me say that simple stuff works. In many cases a simple like is all you need. Do think that photo of a cat is cute? Like it. Do you agree with that comment? Like it.In other words: simple emotion => simple reaction.But what if you don’t like something? (Hence the Disqus down vote).And more importantly what if you have powerful or complex emotions around something?Just seen Schindler’s list? Does a ‘like’ capture all you want to express?Just finished a three week cruise of the Nile on a wooden raft? Ditto.The obvious answer is to allow people to type-in their more complex opinions, but people generally prefer pressing buttons to typing (especially on mobile).So, how do we solve this problem? Is it worth solving?
Zagat addressed this decades ago. UGC in 300 characters.
Is language worth learning…On mobile especially, 90% of the battle is capturing the simplest action that can carry depth of expression. Once you break down the barriers to expression, the depth of conversation follows your thoughts not the limitations of the tools.
@awaldstein:disqus but doesn’t the simplification of it spell the death of its complexity depth? it’s sort of an oxymoron.
Nothing better than a good oxymoron in the morning!Yes, today you are correct of course.But no…there are companies out there who are building language that simplicity of input is not determinant of the complexity of thought in nor the depth of response.And…don’t ask who they are please ;)BTW…great to see you the other evening. My post on this week of community and engagement and comments talk is out in an hour.
Can information can be conveyed by simple symbols – Obviously! The issue is the quantify of symbols, not their bandwidth. With the symbols 1 and 0 you can express an a Shakespearean sonnet or film a child being born.The key point is whether the message function is extensible.I can like (or not) or do neither and we can express this in two bits of information. But are my two bits worth anything devoid a context that gives them meaning ?Likes can be valuable and even deeply meaningful if set in rich context, and context is provided by the content provider and the reader alike. We chose what we read and what it means to us.
Many have said.I’ll repeat:Context is truly everything.
Great to see you too Arnold. We still have that glass of wine pending.
Thanks ArnoldIt’s just a hunch at the moment, but I believe if you offer people a very quick and simple way of expressing emotions that cannot be captured with a simple like then they will take it.The key words here are ‘quick’ and ‘simple’ 😉
I have a rather complicated relationship with Like and Share.I’m now afraid to Share anything that might piss off a potential investor, employer, customer, partner, etc. So I Like something when I don’t feel safe Sharing it. In many cases I have a much more complex emotion about Like than I do Share.My Likes are often more important data about me than my Shares.
That’s interesting. So, it’s driven by the fear you mentioned? True that the Share is more powerful, but the aggregate of both shares and likes is what amounts to a signal. A single share propagates directly. A single like integrates with other likes.
Right. I Like something because I want to help contribute to the overall popularity of it without having to stick my neck all the way out and put my name on it.I used to Share the things I felt most passionate about. Now I Like them. I Share the things I feel strongly about that I think are not going to seriously offend anyone important. So sharing is actually a weaker ‘vote’ from me.So my point is, the Like feature is really valuable to me and may be a more meaningful action than some might think. It may not necessarily represent a “simple emotion.” In fact, my Sharing and Liking activity represents the opposite of “simple emotion => simple action.”I’ll Share a funny cat video and comment on it. But I am much more emotionally involved with the political graphic that I just liked.
Excuse my sarcasm for a moment:Congratulations: you’ve discovered how the internet and its long memory flattens people out into ones least common denominator!I’ve also found this fact about the internet troubling. It is basically starting to dawn on me this week that the data of liking and sharing is not nearly as useful as I thought, since it explains very little about how you got to the thought that you did. It is going to take a while for computers to catch up to the differences in the ways we communicate as well as the ways we process communication. In the meantime, the tension you feel is completely normal.
Hmm…gotta update my 4sq and 18 other apps on this device. Oh joy, low on disc space.
Don’t remind me…
Foursquare is creating new points of interaction, while its main concepts that need fixing and could create much bigger addiction and attraction remain untouched.Let me elaborate on this a bit. If you are a passionate 4SQ user, but not leaving tips or creating content in any way, what do you actually do? mostly gamification and chasing mayorships. Gamification element of 4sq has so much potential, but is poorly exploited. It does seems that 4sq teams severely lacks game experts, or game creators.Let me briefly explain.. Point system is useless as there is no winning. Competition is happening everyday but only with your friends. There are no winners per day, per week, per month. There is no league. There are no cups. There are no experience points!! EXPs are one of the most important gamification elements.There are no Levels!Now comes the beauty business part. Brands. If the gamification layer is done properly, brands would have a great platform to organize activities, giveaways, rewards (both virtual and real life).. and then there is your business model. Not to speak about people buying virtual goods, etc.4SQ needs upgrades badly, but not in the arena of social interactions but in the arena of gamification. Likes will not bring you paying customers. Or am I wrong?
Just updated in my Android. The app is great, but I didn’t like that in the tour to the new features the box to share to facebook was marked by default. To be fair, it also said that I would always be able to decide which checkins would appear in FB, but I don’t like apps deciding this things for me. I don’t know, maybe I’m too grumpy today.
it’s marked by default the first time you checkin but not every time. default becomes what you did last. at least that’s what happened to me yesterday
I disagree that the Like feature is the biggest game changer. It’s a very important feature, but what could be more game changing is if more users enter comments & if the quality of comments & tips from the current 1% increases.
hmm. i can see your point. do you consider commenting a 1% activity or a 10% activity?
Check-in with comment and/or photo: 1%Create location & check-in: 1%Check-in: 10%Comment: 10%Like: barely distinguishable from consumption, even in aggregate.Edit: Playing with it a bit more I see you can like and dislike the venue of your check-in which is a more interesting statement, so…Check-in with like/dislike: 1%
You forgot the Super Users who have curation rights. Maybe it’s 1% of that 1%. I’m one of them.
What are curation rights on Foursquare?
I won’t add it as your comment stands alone.I didn’t know about curation rights as I’m a lowly 2500 check-in kinda guy. I have submitted edits and merge requests previously, but it’s not obvious to me how to do this in the new app.
It’s a web feature
It’s currently probably a 1% (or less-,it’s .4% on AVC, right?), but could be more over time, as more users take on & see more value in commenting. If you think about it, a Like is a lazy comment, a signal. I believe that as we learn to leave more interesting comments on Checkins that generate a small discussion, the better it is. Eg your 24-hr steak checkin & the one about test marketing Mexican food for Joanne stuck in my mind as great conversational Checkins. Tip for all: Leave more interesting checkin comments, just like you do on AVC. You’ve had the training here!!!
Was thinking the same thing!Checkins should have a MANDATORY comment field with a MINIMUM 100 word text-length.Quora’fy checkins don’t ‘click-bait’ them.
My check-in rate would go down to near zero if they did that. I don’t want to write 100 characters every time I go to the chipotle by my office, but I like checking in there. Most of my check-ins are repeat visits at restaurants like that.
Comments in 4sq are ephimeral. If I were to mandate something it would be tips. Something like “you’ve been here 10 times, you have to add a tip”. Bad thing is that maybe places would fill with worthless tips.
It would fit their model better to incentivize tips with points or badges than to require them. Actually, they probably already do, but they could surface that more: “you’re a regular! Leave a tip a tell everyone why for extra points.”
That’s too much effort then though for the data that they want to collect.
More emphasis on tips would move them even closer to yelp. They may not see themselves that way, but they seem to me to be converging. I’m sure I’m unusual, but I’ve been using both for check-in. Still only use yelp for research….
One more important note.Foursqare is now converging to likenesses of facebook, instagram, blogs, or any service that has everything rotating around likes, comments and posts like functionality. This is wrong! It is following, or even worst, copying the herd.Fred you said it yourself couple of days ago “Do not follow the herd”.I would also like to cite you on a thing you said about facebook “a photo sharing application with chat attached”Foursqare is now basically going in a direction of photo sharing app with likes and comments attached. Don’t go that way, there is nothing there but competition and crowded space.
i disagree. have you tried the new app? it is awesome.
yes I did. That’s why I got that feeling of been-there, done-that. It reminds of everyone else now. A feed with likes and comments. Isn’t that like a facebook, instagram and everyblogoutthere.and where is the business model behind a newsfeed?(not to mention that gamication is pushed almost out)
It’s a big market, lots of shares to share – though I see what you mean.
“Don’t go that way, there is nothing there but competition and crowded space.”Exactly… Hit ’em where they ain’t! <- Thanks Peter DruckerBut, you need to “have” all the commodity features in your offering. A car today needs to have fuel injection, anti-lock brakes, radio, etc. The additional non-commodity features are what sets a car apart from the rest.Obviously you can go “full blown innovative” and create something totally new. But, the awareness and teaching effort is expensive (time, money, and staff).
They had that innovation. What they needed to do is learn from it, and fix it! Not copy what others are doing.I would not say that on the web it is the same as with the car industry. On the web what works is Keep-it-simple.
I have a question for @fredwilson:disqus or everyone in general who is using Foursquare. What is the appropriate Foursquare etiquette? Is it more like Twitter, LinkedIn or Facebook in terms of connecting with others? For example, do you connect with your blog followers on Foursquare?
it is more like facebook. you only connect with people you wouldn’t mind showing up at a bar, cafe, or restaurant you are at
That kind of sucks. There are people out there that I’d like to follow on Foursquare to enrich my Foursquare recommendations who are not necessarily my friends. Again it comes back to the question: My friends do not necessarily represent my taste and interests. It seems to me that there has to be a way for following people on 4Sq. I don’t want to meet them where they are necessarily but I trust their taste. This would be especially useful while visiting another city.
You can always try to follow them. The worst that can happen is that they say no. Although, I’m a hypocrite. There are some people I’d like to follow and don’t because I don’t know if it would be appropriate — but I only follow people that I am acquainted with on some level.
The trouble is, how do I even find them? Say, I made a comment here about a place in Istanbul and you thought we share similar tastes wanted to connect with me on 4sq. How would you even find me?
I’d be more inclined to accept a follow from someone with whom I have interacted. If we have common interests, there are safer places for me to first get to know you than having you follow me on 4sq. If you are interacting with someone online, their 4sq i.d. seems relatively easy to figure out — plus you will get suggestions (as I recall) of people to follow based on your connections on other social platforms.One place that you can connect on the next level with people that you meet on the social web is Engagio. (www.engag.io)
The thing I love the most about Following as a social gesture is that it really is de-stigmatizing stalking. :PI’d follow you everywhere Donna! 😉
Thanks, Matt. :)I love stalking and eavesdropping. I confess.Eavesdropping made easier BTW by Engagio.
@donnawhite:disqus @wmoug:disqus @mattamyers:disqusHaving been stalked, and bugged, I will never use 4square. I have yet to live as I did before that experience, and I doubt I ever will.
That sheds a whole new light on it. What a horrible experience. I’m sorry that you experienced that and can understand your wariness. I feel safe with 4sq since no one is following me without my permission and I can choose when to reveal my whereabouts to friends. Although, it would be nice to have a feature that allows you to create levels of relationships so that you can choose to reveal certain check-ins to a more intimate group.
🙁 I imagine this is something more people will come to realize is a serious possibility and issue.I would never use a check-in service unless it was only shared with a highly curated list of people, though I can’t really think of many situations where anyone needs to know exactly where I am in real-time. Maybe two.I wish you peace. I know how haunting terrifying situations can be; MDMA helped me… just a sidenote; Find someone who’s experienced with it if you do decide to give it a go for therapeutic reasons.
Good tagline or not for @wmoug:disqus to use — tough call. 😛
De-stigmatizing stalking just doesn’t sound like a good idea….
Of course not the legitimate form of stalking, however Following’s allowed a friendlier / non-intrusive version of it to exist. 🙂
when does it stop being friendly though?
When you overstep someone’s boundaries more than once (you can’t know what someone’s boundaries are until you tell them); I don’t mean illegal boundaries.Following someone home, for example, isn’t cool. Intercepting someone on the subway or at a cafe because they post their location on a daily/regular basis I would say is fair game – and I would assume the poster is looking for interaction / is open to it / won’t mind, assuming you respect any boundaries that might get set.”Sorry I’m not interested” “Sorry I’m really busy right now” etc..An issue with this is that many people aren’t good at communicating their boundaries in a respectful / kind way, or even at all. This just allows awkwardness and discomfort for all parties to ensue.Many people who aren’t good at communicating boundaries also aren’t good at setting them, nor seeing / recognizing when someone else is setting them. The more aware of this you become the better you can manage your boundaries with others.
That reminds me to this hilarious video about real life facebook/twitter behaviour.http://www.youtube.com/watc…
You’re sure you weren’t a paparazzi before?
Tips are public, you can see them when you check a place. It doesn’t matter if the author is your friend. I agree, however, that having a way to follow people without being able to track them would be an interesting addition to check tips in a more structured way.
Yes but 4sq tips are not a great way to decide where to go when you are travelling. I often find myself using other apps like TripAdvisor to decide where to go if I am in another city. The comments there are much much better. The ranking is much much better. Foursquare only has the social element going for it which seems closer to a follow model than to a connection model.
I find that looking up and following lists totally helps this problem. I follow a number of lists about coffee shops for this very reason. Also reminds me, this is something I should be doing more of (making lists)
Which list should I follow? How do I know that a list is of good quality? Is there a way to find that out?
I tend to assume if the list has one or two things that I like, there will be other places on the list that I will like. Truth is you don’t know, but that is where serendipity comes in with these sorts of things 🙂
Newspapers and magazines are good for reviews.
I tend to find lists based on places I have already been and liked. I usually have no idea who curated the original list. I try to see if there is multiple places I like on the list in question.Does that help?
Just downloaded — I like the enhancements to the UI. Has a nice feel.I see that several of my friends were at USV yesterday for a Disqus event! Times like this I feel the distance between NYC and the West Coast!I like the idea of a like feature — any opportunity to interact or signal even on the simplest level. But, again, the question remains, what does it really mean to like? I am going to like all my friends’ USV checkin but it means I wish I had been there. Is that really curation?
1000 Likes will earn you a free trip on Air Foursquare.1500 Likes & you can make a stop in Toronto.2000 Likes includes a hotel stay & dinner where you can give more Likes after you checkin to all these places.
Now we’re talkin.
Yup. I’m in now too..
what about cheating?
I’m not following sorry
I thought you were talking about real-life rewards based on likes you earn?That is an extremely risky business. Voting on internet is a huge problem. While working in marketing agency we had so much trouble in managing successfully campaigns that incorporate rewards based on likes.. you would not believe.Generally likes are useless as a comparison tool of any kind. Unless everyone is obliged to like or dislike, which also absurd.
Yes, yes, yes
the lack of these kinds of payoffs makes 4square user engagement plummet after a while.
If you have a high Klout score, you can get some perks given to you actually. Virgin flew the top Klout scorers on their inaugural flight from Toronto to San Francisco. I just heard that some very high Klout scorers get in free or with a big discount at @Leweb. And there’s probably more of that going on.I dunno if one should trade their Likes or social status Points or something. @jlm73tx and @FAKEGRIMLOCK would get lots of perks based on their AVC Likes 🙂
yeah, good point. I get those periodically–too bad they suck and are completely uninteresting. But it definitely gets me to visit Klout when I get one:)
PERKS GOOD IDEA.MAKE ALL PERKS COMPLETELY STUPID BAD IDEA.
Yup and I know one of the top Klout scorers and he was a hacker. He was higher than most celebrities and they knocked him down manually.
.I am strongly in favor of anything that results in JLM getting a lot of perks..
ME SAY SAME. THAT JLM, HIM DESERVE SOME PERKS.ME, GRIMLOCK, HAVE PLENTY ALREADY.
As somebody that has been involved with points programs since 1995 in the toughest environment anywhere (Vegas) I can tell you if you do that I will have one of my guys program a script for beer money, sign up 100,000 new Disqus accounts and become the most liked person here by a factor of 1,000.I also will show you how I can spoof my GPS location and checkin all over the world within 1 minute.Anybody that does this needs to understand the word “social fool” and ‘go to the Blackhat conference to understand what happens when you allow non monetary actions translate into money.
Wow, very impressive. I said that tongue n’ cheek & it will stay that way. Gaming the system is not what a good thing.
Not impressive, just reality.
I meant that your knowledge of this was impressive.
We do every Triple Crown track, for decades. As an Italian I will say Tony Soprano will wake up tomorrow and try to figure out how to rip off Belmont.
How do you all deal with gaming the system – that’s got to be an interesting part of computing….
No, its an interesting part of social engineering. http://en.wikipedia.org/wik…Black Hat is a very interesting place Do not go to their FAQ’s if you are at work.
WHAT ABOUT ONE GRIMLIKE?
Lol. That’s like a SuperLike, worth ^10 more.
how do I get a grimlike?
You don’t want that … when grim likes someone … it is about eating you alive :-).
Dye your hair red.
now that deserves its own feature friday
Donna: Interesting point about noticing your friends check-in’s at an event. As you said though, are you going to like ALL your friends’ check-in’s? Suppose you overlook some accidentally. (EDIT: I presume that “Likes” are tracked, by UID of those who did the liking. Unlike tumblr or disqus, where it is much less obvious.) Most readers of my comment will probably think that is irrelevant. But it isn’t, not when people get feelings hurt. Lots do. This is “social media”, after all.Why did they change FourSquare? The way it was before, it didn’t matter if one used the service but didn’t get any feedback. You could use it for any or no reason, just fun. There wasn’t any measure of “success” or “failure” as quantifiable comparison. Now, with number of “Likes”, or lack of any at all, there is.
Wish you were there Donna, you’re always a voice that explains the idea of social glue well.
Oh Shana. What a way to start my day. Especially coming from YOU! Upvote, like , selah.
I think likes are pivotal. There are two pieces that I see as being relevant. 1) if you try and use some other word, users will think you are trying hard to do what Facebook did, with a spin. 2) I feel Fred is using curate as a “browsing”-type verb. When I am at the car was this afternoon, I’ll open up FSQR on tablet or phone and go through the feed and like a few friends’ check-ins.On a personal note:I would check-in on FSQR and nothing would happen sometimes, but everyone liked it on FB, so I kept doing it. Naturally I started checking in on FB only–that is where my content was appreciated. But the FB app is a headache, so I rarely check-in now. The new FSQR app is nice and trying to drive more engagement between users. I can guarantee you my trip this weekend will involve a lot of check-ins.
I am all for making 4sq more of a social engagement instrument and not just informational. Or at least having that option.
I would like to see some numbers behind this. What is the early adopters and hard core community doing vs. what is main stream expecting. Everyone sharing check-ins and liking other peoples check-ins sounds like serious overhead to already crowded social networking time-investment.Check-ins need to have additional purpose! Whether it is gaming or it is rewards or whatever. Only social does not convince me. Facebook tried and failed. It does not solve any particular civilization problem. That’s why 4sq does not have 100M users yet.
I knew that if someone was paying attention, they would catch me on this. I don’t see 4sq merely as a social networking platform. I don’t need it for that. However, I do notice that the more I see what other people are doing when I check in, the more interesting it is to me. And the more people interact with me, the more fun it is. While at first, 4sq appealed to the explorer/adventurer/journaler in me – and the futurist who can envision how all this information being collected will benefit me – well, if I am going to use it anyway, then I want it to have social value because social is important to me. Engagement is important to me – and the more I can incorporate this into the things I am doing anyway, the better. However, the bigger picture is that for 4sq to reach its full potential, I believe it needs to have more ways to engage the user – more touch points, if you will. This will increase its monetization opportunities. If it doesn’t monetize then it goes away, and I don’t want that. To be honest, it wasn’t until a stranger sitting next to me on a plane spent about an hour talking about 4sq’s potential, that I really became excited. This was a while back and the person had nothing to do with the product – but he was a visionary.
Donna, that link I just pasted details the Foursquare revamp.
Thanks, a lot, Emily. I really appreciate this. I’ve been a little under the radar lately — missing out on some developments. Must fix this!
FB check in on the mobile app seems really simple now, and since there is so much more usage than 4SQ the places I’m checking in at (except occasionally in Europe) are already there.
it doesn’t bother you that you are sharing your location with everyone you are connected to on FB? i like checking in on 4sq because the default social graph for my checkins is the small group i am connected to on 4sq. occasionally i will share my checkin on FB, but not that often
you can set foursquare to post every 4sq checkin to FB. they 4sq checkins look beautiful in the FB timeline
I’m wrapping my head around liking check-ins. You aren’t approving of a place or a person, but the act of a certain person visiting a certain place. Deep.
“Sometimes it is the littlest things that are the biggest things”Meanwhile Disqus removes their Like button. ;)*still a thorn in my side*
No, the Disqus “Like” button is still here! It is tinier in some installs. Here, I will test right now. I will Like your comment. I love Disqus, and Tumblr too, for that reason. Both seem, to me, as close to a pure signal as possible.
Cute. 🙂 The issue is a little bigger than small though. I’m planning to do a longer blog post on the topic.. haven’t had time to finish it up yet though.It comes down to what you’re trying to foster in a community.Also, the upvotes/downvotes don’t do much for me – it’s less triggering than seeing the word ‘Like’ if I actually like something. And I will unlikely downvote anything, unless it’s someone saying spreading hatred or being malicious – though there is/was reporting for that.
Matthew: You said “I will likely downvote anything”. I presume you meant that you are UNlikely to downvote anything.Regarding the other matter (you are very fun!) … the “report” button for flagging hateful and/or malicious behavior/content has remained intact. It seems to be part of a pull down menu on the upper right, alongside each comment. I will not test it on you. Please do not test it on me, okay?
Thank you! Yes. Unlikely. :PMutually agreed — we will not report eachother. So does that give us permission now to hate-on eachother? I hope not!
@mattamyers:disqus Sigh. I didn’t mean to cause offense. I truly was having fun interacting with you. It is fun to inspect a new version of a familiar user interface such as Disqus! You had all the clever ideas, not I. I just was enjoying as you pointed them out, and thought we were bantering in a friendly manner. I am sorry if I misbehaved.It really distresses me that you think this was a precursor to mutually “hating on each other”. I have never done that to anyone with comments. Well, not that I was aware (maybe I have, hmmm, just didn’t realize it. Oh. Crud.) That is why I use my real name, and provide links to my Google profile, from which my full last name can be found. I am not hiding behind anonymity. (But I am female, and a widow, thus try to be somewhat careful in a public venue such as online commenting, so don’t include my last name on Disqus.)
Oh no – this is the problem with online communication; I was continuing the friendly banter / joking along!
I sometimes forget you can’t see my face to see I’m being playful – so then I forget to say so. 🙂 I hope knowing this quells any distress. 🙂
Matthew (Sorry, I can’t get the @ to work now): Ohhh, I just noticed that there is a DISLIKE button on Fred’s Disqus install too! I could see what happens if I were to DISLIKE all his posts… I’d probably just get perma-banned. (Thinking aloud: No, I wouldn’t do that, even if Fred would tolerate it. Fred is a good-hearted person, as I recall. Maybe misguided in this particular instance regarding FourSquare chekins. Maybe not. I confess: I don’t know.)
Perma-banning only happens if you are a spambot who likes posting porn…..
That data would just be used to not display to you similar content. I understand the value they get from the data, though it’s the trickle effects of it all that hold the problems – for the individual and the bigger picture of community building.
One place where the “like” button truly works for me as curation is Tumblr. Seems to be a pure signal.
@donnawhite:disqus Yes! Very nicely phrased, “a pure signal”. I agree with you!
repinning on pinterest works that way for me, too; someone likes what i liked enough to pin, and gave a nod
I stay away from Pinterest; I have an issue with their model. I feel they are skating on issues of ownership/licensure with their model of re-appropriating content…..
more than tumblr?what i pin has a link to the source#livinginthefuture
I will weigh in here as I am a heavy user os Tumblr’s indirect blogging tools – more so the reblog, occasionally the “like”. These are not, to quibble with your phrasing, “pure” signals, but they are signals. At least to me, the meaning is not obvious.
Do you think there are mixed messages in these signals?
I think that there is some messaging herein that is indirect; I am attributing my slowness to being an outsider.
FOURSQUARE is a gimmick. It is not anything people want or need. Like a pet rock.
I use it as a lightweight lifestyle diary….
What’s wrong with my pet rock?I sell them, too. Only $5
Cool, you sell pet rocks. So do I.A newborn is $5, but I also have trained ones that go for $10 – $15 depending on the training.
Wow. That’s a great pricing model. Do you do any mixed breeding?
I don’t do any mixed breeding. I source all my pet rocks from breeders that don’t sell retail. I can get mixed breeds if you want, they are more expensive though.
I’m so sorry – I’ve already spent all of my money buying animal crackers and Cheez Whiz to barter for Wisdom Rocks from @daleallyn:disqus
What is going on here? … good read though.
We’re buying and selling pet rocks. Are you interested?
I sell wisdom rocks. They’re a few million years old. They’re just $3,800 (free shipping). They’ve been through a lot.
Brilliant. I’ll take 5.
Matthew, thank you for your order. I know that you’ll extract much wisdom from your purchase. Please be aware that the communication and guidance provided from your purchase of Wisdom Rocks may be subtle at first. Give it time and the life message will come.Your invoice total is: $19,000 (with free shipping as promised). I appreciate your business.
I’d like to pay using Bitcoin. Do you take Bitcoin?
Hey, I’ve been known to accept crackers and cheese!
Will animal crackers and Cheez Whiz do?
Umm, no, Matthew, sorry. I do have my standards. Wine and cheese (and black pepper water crackers) are valid currency, but attempts to use Cheez Whiz actually carries additional penalties. 😉
What??? It’s like what some users thought of Twitter initially. And the answer was, Try Twitter Search and see for yourself.With Foursquare, go try the Explore feature. It competes with anything of quality for finding the right venues. My Coffee list in Toronto rivals any other published lists of the same nature. https://foursquare.com/wmou…
The list feature on foursquare (for me) is probably their most useful component. I follow a list for coffee houses and pubs in Toronto
Every time an app or idea is criticized someone suggests “that’s what they said about twitter.” if you want to believe in foursquare – go ahead, that’s what they said about MySpace. The app space is canabilizing itself with trivial space junk. Little pieces of junk raising tiny bits of capital on the hopes it is the one in a hundred. By the way, the latest idea from the napster guy that got a lot of pr – rediculous. Hype is not a way to change the game.
Although I see your point. Just try to get funding for a “business” instead of a “software project”, it’s very difficult (Fred is excluded because I didn’t talk with him).Everyone seems to be funding startup projects not startup businesses. For some reason people are intrigued by “can we build the software” instead of “can we build a business”.Vetern software developers, me included, know if the software can be built. No question there. But if you can’t get funding to create a business you’re options become limited: build something to flip or do the starving artist thing.
check back in a few years. then we will see who was right. it’s a good debate. but i am happy with the bet we made.
1/10/100…Would adding a “thumbs down” button amplify the check-ins even more?
That would be a signal/level of quality control..
if they do it lean, they could easily split-test it.
While it does look pretty, some of the function has gone for me to make way for likes. My To Do list isn’t as detailed, which is probably why when you go to your “Tips”, they’re now likes instead of “I’ve done this”. I’m bummed that it seems that they dropped Foodspotting integration. I no longer see the specific dishes that make me want to check in to specific restaurants. This like is more for vanity than usefulness. I appreciate when a like button lets me bookmark or store somewhere.
I don’t see the like button in my foursquare :>(
You upgrade? It’s a faded out heart. More Tumblr style.
I just got it late in the day. Not sure what I think at all, very different layout. I also know that I miss in the explore tad the ability to change how far I want the results to be recommended for me.
I also wouldn’t call it a like button… it’s a muted heart underneath everyone’s status…
What is the purpose of ‘like’ in 4sq meant for. Is iti) I like the checkin you made because i also made the checkin ORii) I like the comment you made on the checkin.If it is i) then it all makes good sense for the 1% of the 1% to use it for a new 4sq user.If it is ii) then 🙂
So excited to see the new and improved version on Blackberry soon!
I often thought that there is a metric missing with likes. I will occasionally hit “like” when someone really rings the bell with a comment, something humorous or uplifting, but generally I can’t be bothered, I either have something to say or I don’t..And I am probably not unique – So when I do get off my behind and write a comment, it feels a little bit good when it gets some “likes”.I often wondered whether my Disqus “like-metric” currently 71 votes for 188 comments was mediocre, trash or blazingly hot. So I could compare with Fred’s 32140 comments and 8478 votes – but then I can carry a pocket calculator if I really want.Wow – i just did it ! Fred with 26.4% and me with 37.7%, finally I found a metric (or a single contrived data-point) that for a nano-second lets me compete (until I look at the relative engagement volume .Now all I need is someone to spread it about! Would messrs Ha, Waldstein / Mougayar care to comment ?So who wouldn’t want to see this clearly on disqus / engagio – its perhaps a faint but real signal as to whether someone is follow-worthy or not and when it comes to Discovery and Engagement that is one of the names of the game.Please do not like this comment – as I dont need a wobbly spike on my metrics to explain from an external meta-context – or perhaps it would make me smile – – you decide
If you want to see your whole Vanity “points” picture, I think that Empire Avenue does that. Klout gives you a measure for reach power, and Visibli does some of that too. Like-to-Comment ratio is one measure, but there are others. Reality is that only you are interested in those numbers and few others are.
William – I must disagree – I was joking about my performance (maybe the dripping irony is not clear on paper) however, I often see a bright comment and think (I wonder if that guy/gal) makes good comments generally – if so I can use this metric for discovery – surely it is the opposite of vanity – more – are they interesting to others ?
OK. I understand. We provide a link to someone’s profile on Engagio where you can quickly gage a person’s profile, network reach, latest comments, etc…
Tsk-tsk, William Mougayar! How can you say that only the individual user is interested in Klout scores? If that were the case, Klout would have a grim future (and much else which is designed to use social media reach and influence metrics as input, some examples of which are cited in the prior comments). Yes, it is Vanity. But vanity is very compelling.
Ellie – Have you tried engag.io – I think you would like it given the *Compulsion* you describe 🙂
William – I looked at Klout and occasionally check in to see whats going on – The funniest think is that I (and I suppose everyone else) gets enormously “Kloutful” on their birthday – If a bunch of Birthday greetings on FB can turn you into a mover and shaker, overnight we really should go out and buy a papermill. Think what a written personalized note in a physical envelope could do for your klout !
I just checked-in for the first time on the new FourSquare at 33Across (my office)….Hmm, FourSquare at 33Across. Definitely living in a crossword puzzle. Anywho…feel free to “like” my Free Friday Breakfast http://bit.ly/MseGh6
really smart swervea friend of a friend is my frienda place my friend likes — well, it’s yelp but without the shoutingalso: i posted a remembrance in gratitude for the gifts ray bradbury gave with every bookhttp://lauriekalmanson.blog…when i was growing up, interplanetary space rockets seemed no less real than the subway or the cyclone at coney island
The new app is definitely an improvement but I must say that due to the general lack of comments – I have little reason to checkin with 4Square. I generally only do it when waiting for someone and bored. However, yesterday I checked in at a Starbucks and was informed that $1 donation will be made to AIDS charity because of my action. I thought that was great and that would be a motivating force behind me checking in more.Still, getting percentage of users to increase their engagement will be the game changer for 4Square. I currently find myself using the discovery features on Google Maps and now with Zagat reviews – it is much more informative than 4Square
that’s what william said and i totally agree with you and him
I wrote a blog post about Foursquare about six months ago kind of anticipating the changes (dare I say pivot? 🙂 ) they are making. I still enjoy using the app but…. http://gerger.co/yalimslodg…
Another new thing I noticed with Foursquare as part of this new release is that the Foursquare stream has more activity. It’s including more than checkins, i.e. if a friend saved a list, followed a page, liked a place or a tip, etc…I’m still not sure if I like to see all this level of details. I need a few more days to figure out if this is Signal or Noise.
i’m a big believer in foursquare and have declared it winner of the kid mercury award for most likely to survive bubble 2.0 without being embarrassed.http://kidmercury.posterous…there’s a problem with the like button, though. that problem is called marketers. the more valuable 4sq makes it, the more marketers will attack it.there may be enough room for a cycle of innovation to emerge where they can get value out of it before the marketers tear it down. but this is part of why the social media game is niche. because marketers are coming from a niche focus, and so they will attack on a niche by niche basis to take down all these big mega platforms. only a niche platform can defend against niche marketers.what constitutes niche? something that does not involve data-intensive forms of curation, which google and amazon have already won before the game has started.but still, the kid mercury award for most likely to survive bubble 2.0 without being embarrassed will not be retracted and remains in the rightful hands of 4sq. they are the only inherently mobile player leveraging game play to re-connect society and commerce, and they have the right founders. so there’s still lots of opportunities. as for the like button, maybe it adds some value to the experience, but i’m bearish on it as a long-term solution to curation. marketers are licking their chops at the thought.
Fantastic post, even though I think some other folks qualify for the KMML2S – mainly Twitter.
Twitter – winner of the JHRHML2S award.
i really hope some day we can all have an AVC awards ceremony. i look forward to designing the award for foursquare, lol that will be fun.
“without being embarrassed”i love that that is the defining objective
Are we saying that 90% of the active users on foursquare don’t check-in? I find that hard to believe. I could easily believe that 90% or more of the users don’t actively use the app at all — they signed up, tried it a couple times, and now pretty much ignore it. I’m skeptical that there are a lot of people launching the app just for the explore tab, and not doing check-ins. Of course I’m purely guessing. @FredWilson any facts you can give us?
no i am saying in a fully mature and realized version of foursquare, a small percentage of the users will check in.
This is small but yet very powerful concept of 1% creator, 10% curator, rest consumers… and for any successful product you need to make it easy for all the three segment of users! Great thought and thanks for sharing your thoughts, it is very helpful for future entrepreneurs like us.
I would probably use FourSquare if I were still in the city. Back when I used FourSquare for awhile in the burbs, I usually just did a CheckIn without comments or tips or anything else like that (let’s call that a CheckBit). I think I’d aim for higher than 1% for something like that.Were the Likes on your CheckIns because you had some particularly valuable comment/tip attached to the CheckIn? Or were the Likers liking You in general, or the Place in general, or your association with the place in general, or the fact that you were there at that moment? Liking a CheckBit seems pretty meaningless….
We’ve been exploring new neighborhoods, particularly in Brooklyn, as well look for a new place, and I have found Explore outstanding for knowing what’s around in terms of restaurants, bars, etc. Just so far superior to Yelp, IMHO, that I cringe when Yelp is mentioned as an analog to Foursquare. Seems much too limiting. That said, Dens has been talking in his interviews about “deemphasizing” the check-in. I am not exactly sure what that means, but I sure hope that messing with the algorithm, either by adding the feedback from likes or making it harder for the “1%” to check-in, does not mess with the amazing Explore results that I have been getting.
that is probably the wrong way to phrase it. emphasizing the discovery experience would be a better way to say it.
Heres’ what I know…first off,totally agree with most of the posts from KidMercury, it’s the marketers that eventually kill off social media for the common folks.I have 130+ friends. out of those friends, 2 or 3 still use 4sq. Will and may that number increase, it may BUT Facebook is declining in usage. I don’t know if 4SQ has other outlets for their product, but if they don’t I would strongly suggest they do..
What about the fact that the system seems to let you “like” your own check-ins? To some of previous points does that form of self promotion actually help? And since there is the question of how many people actually check-in (the 1% as Fred says) doesn’t the decision to act to check-in naturally suggest a like?Of course, it could just be a bug since when I try to pull up that section after clicking on liking my own check-in it seems to crash 🙂
Earlier today, this made me smile: https://twitter.com/dcurtis…It’s hard to not root for Dennis. He comes off as a genuinely humble and confident dude.
i am certainly biased. i really like @dens
The average 4sq user is not a content creator Fred. Same can be said of Pininterest.
I see things a bit differently. Yes, the Like button will draw engagement. An angle I would like to see is the biz dev angle; destinations that are featured on Foursquare and that are checked-into can exert some effort and engage in relationships with Foursquare to incent them to, say, offer deals/specials to visitors who use Foursquare…this puts the onus on vendors and results in more traffic for all involved.
.Convergence. This is all about how social platforms are converging on a single theme — serving their members as they want to be served.There is a currency that is being developed and all of the denominations are becoming more comparable. A “like” and a $5 bill all look the same regardless of their parentage.I am very interested to know where folks whose opinions I respect are spending their time and what they think about things. This is a social reaction not a platform reaction. If I see that Fred Wilson is patronizing a particular restaurant and I am looking for a restaurant, his social credibility with me is sufficient to get me to try that restaurant.Why?Because through years of observation, I trust his judgment and I know his tastes. Social credibility.This is more a social/community judgement criteria rather than a platform validation. I trust Fred whether he is on Foursquare or Twitter or his blog.All of this stuff is converging and the world is becoming more related.How does this work in real life?On Wednesday night after the Disqus event at USV’s event space, Fred, William, Arnold and I went to a Lebanese restaurant picked out by William, followed wines recommended by Arnold (who deferred to Wm just for the record) and had a delightful dinner rich with wide ranging conversation.Fred checked in on Foursquare.All of us had been brought together by the power of AVC.com.As the Sage of Lancaster @ccrystle:disqus says — this Internet stuff could be huge.BTW, we discussed the Finish-Russian War of 1939, the scourge of American slavery, the persecution of the Jews, the Turkish invasion of Cyprus, the geography of Lebanon, the politics of the NYC mayoralty and that was before we had even finished the hummus.Is this a great country or what?.
Nicely said. But where does a new 4sq upgrade fits in? You could have seen people checking in also with the previous version of 4sq.Social status is currency. Mayor-ship is a social status. Number of followers is social status. Other things.. just likes going into thin air.
.The social status thing is food for ego enrichment and not for everyone.I always remember the scene between Meg Ryan and Billy Chrystal in which she was faking an orgasm and the lady at the next table said: “I want what she’s having.”If one respects another’s judgment, well you see where this is going….
You forgot the topic of Bingo which was the piece the resistance as far as the discussion went, sandwiched between the 2nd set of appetizers and the grilled meats. Oh, and we slipped in a few chop talk discussions on Gawk.it, Disqus, Engagio, commenting, community, etc.
.Haha, remember the bingo business is a big secret.JLM = the King of BingoI must say I am really enjoying Engagio and I should have gotten a personal lesson from you. Next time..
What you said about the Bingo business entered from one ear and left from the other 🙂
Re: Engagio. Thank you, but you ain’t seen nothing yet. The best has yet to come.
hrm…wish I could get a transcript of the chop talk discussions now 😉
Weren’t your ears buzzing?
I just thought that buzzing was from the sound of the keys clicking because of the frenzy of code I was typing out (while you were all out being social and having fun) 😉
I wish I was there…damn
Life is good.
.As f*cked up as things are in our country, life really is good..
we talked a bit about bingo too. @stevenkane would have enjoyed that.
I just re-downloaded the app for the third time. Again, it’s one of the best designed apps out there. And it’s very user friendly. But it’s just one of those apps I don’t use as a creator, curator, nor consumer. I check in with Instagram and search for places and hotspots on Google. Maybe I should give Foursquare another shot even if it’s just asking it for the nearest Wifi. I’d like to see Apple gobble Foursquare on the cheap and import its 20+ million mobile user community (data) into its new maps app. Forget Ping. Foursquare is going somewhere but the roadmap is hard to predict.
Foursquare is here. Local + Social. Watch out.
This is a super opportunity for USV and Foursquare.
It’s always been here. That’s the issue. Do you really think more people are going to use it? I think it’s status quo, which isn’t a bad thing. Still not profitable though.
I am not close enough to know the details. The business model is solid. Its main competitor is no more. It has decent traction in urban areas.
Subtext: Foursquare is failing. Have a nice day.
haters gonna hate
I think the issue of intent is an extremely difficult issue for mobile / local.Of the 89% of people that will only consumer social media, the question is: how many networks will they use?I like 4SQ’s chances more than others, when it comes to making local work via social drivers, but local is a tough tough nut to crack & Yelp / Trip Advisor have big head starts.
That is the thing. It is not a question of “how many networks” – it is about each destination more than the connection at the end of it, in my mind. You go to Bubby’s because you are hungry and you check in there. While there you check in and become Mayor, get a badge. Because you did check in, all of your friends who are also checked in there get notice. The rest of the equation is sorted out between Foursquare and Bubby’s. Everyone wins. Yelp has a jump but only time-wise, not a quality execution. The approach to the market is both through the destinations and through the users (app).
Users who don’t want to checkin can get value by exploring cities using the data created by the 1% who are checking in.Adding value for the other 99% is obviously important. A challenge I see for Foursquare is how to keep the 1% checking in (otherwise, data mined from their checkins will get stale). This is completely anecdotal, but I’ve noticed fewer Foursquare checkins recently in my Twitter feed.
that’s where their monetization strategy comes in. you are going to see a lot of that coming in the rest of 2012
I appreciate where you are going with this Fred, but I think this truly is a *feature* Friday… I told Dens the same thing: I think he is holding back and has much more to offer. I hope he still plans on innovating further in this space, and doesn’t settle for just “playing with features”. And, to be clear, I don’t mean to play the role of armchair critic. I’ve certainly never built a business as large as Foursquare is now. I only bring this up, because I know he truly has the ability to completely change the game. The Dens that created dodgeball back in 2000(?) is not the same Dens playing with new features today.
he presented at an event we had at usv yesterdayhttps://foursquare.com/v/un…i hope that URL is public but I fear it is notin any case, he presented a long roadmap. one that could easily take us into the next decade.i don’t expect @dens to ever quit innovating in this space
The URL goes to the USV venue. Was there another URL inside it?
no, just the two most recent photos
I just noticed a new feature when you add a Pic: make photo public on/off. Cool!
So glad to hear that from someone much closer to the whiteboard. Thank you!
Still too much friction. Look at what Lexus is doing this weekend at the US Open – that is how a presence should be recorded, the moment captured and shared. It’s so much more valuable because cameras and phones are not allowed in the event this week.
Weird. Entire threads and/or sections or threads have gone missing from this conversation.
i think they are back now.
Not for me.
V5It seems like they demoted checkins so much…that they made less intuitive to checkin.I would be a little worried if I were new to 4sq, I may not check in
that’s ok. not everyone does.
New 4sq is nice, very nice
This question – what is the value of a Like? Is an interesting one. NPR planet money had an interesting episode recently on the FB IPO where the interviewed some firms which broker Likes apparently at $75/1000 likes.Start at 16:00 minutes with the BBC America bit – Top Gear has 15 million likes on FB which is apparently hugely valuable to them:http://www.npr.org/blogs/mo…
it’s gotta be liking the person checking in. let’s say bush jr checked into jail. i might like that! if a friend of mine checked into jail…..no, i wouldn’t like that.